Nytt om Bush-administrasjonen og tortur

[Kubin]

Tidligere øverstkommanderende i Irak, Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, har skrevet bok, og forteller i boka om en blodtørstig Bush i 2004 :

 

"During a videoconference with his national security team and generals, Sanchez writes, Bush launched into what he described as a "confused" pep talk:

 

"Kick ass!" he quotes the president as saying. "If somebody tries to stop the march to democracy, we will seek them out and kill them! We must be tougher than hell! This Vietnam stuff, this is not even close. It is a mind-set. We can't send that message. It's an excuse to prepare us for withdrawal."

 

"There is a series of moments and this is one of them. Our will is being tested, but we are resolute. We have a better way. Stay strong! Stay the course! Kill them! Be confident! Prevail! We are going to wipe them out! We are not blinking!"

 

A White House spokesman had no comment."

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte..._print/asection

 

Gale Mathias and the raving nuts.

[monzilla]

Skjønner ikke helt hva vi skal diskutere her?

[Kubin]

Det henger jo sammen, torturen og andre krigsforbrytelser.

 

NBC-reporteren Richard Engel har skrevet bok.

 

"I don´t care if it created more enemies" fortalte Bush ham i et intervju :

 

--

 

"Bush admits to Engel that going to war was a decision based on his personal instinct and not on any long-range strategy for the Mideast:

 

"I know people are saying we should have left things the way they were, but I changed after 9/11. I had to act. I don't care if it created more enemies. I had to act." "

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/03/r...j_n_104969.html

[Skummel_Fyr]

USA viser arrogansen sin i resten av verden. Og når de tilogmed har planlagt brudd på menneskerettighetene på norsk jord (Mullah Krekar) så har jeg ikke mye til overs for oppførselen deres.

 

Hvis de hadde giddet å brukt tid og penger på å hente denne jihadnissen ut fra Norge hadde jeg personlig sponset turen til Gardermoen i den beste limmoen som kunne leies for penger i Oslo.

[Kubin]

Jon Michael Turner forteller fra Irak. Han ble gratulert av sin overordnede da han hadde drept sin første iraker. Alle ble gratulert når de hadde drept sin første iraker.

 

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7...20War&hl=no ( 4 min )

[Pivotal]

Skummel_Fyr: Jeg skulle gjerne tuppet fyren ut av landet med første sjangse. Men at USA planlegger å kidnappe fyren synes jeg er vel drøyt og arrogant av USA. De må respektere andre lands avgjørelser.

[Spenol]

Dette var søkt. Tar USA organer fra fangene sine? Menneskerettighetsbruddene i USA blir seriøst satt på sidelinjen når de blir sammenlignet med kinesiske brudd.

 

Det må være betryggende for Bush-administrasjonen å vite at uansett hva den tillater av grusomheter, vil dens ivrige fotsoldater forsvare det med alle midler, som for eksempel ved å besvare berettiget kritikk med å flytte fokus over på noe helt annet, som du gjør her. Tråden handler om USAs brudd på menneskerettigheter og bruk av tortur, og ditt bidrag er å flytte fokus til et barbarisk kommunistregime i en annen verdensdel. Hvilken rolle spiller det om sammenligningen er søkt? Hvorfor er dette det eneste du henger deg opp i? Hvorfor henger du deg ikke heller opp i at landet du forguder er i ferd med å ødelegge all kredibilitet det har opparbeidet seg gjennom historien?

[Spenol]

Slike ting foregår hver eneste dag i mesteparten av verden. Hvor naive og arrogante er vi om vi tror det ikke forekommer i krig.

 

Hvilken krig snakker du om?

[Kubin]

"How did the United States come to hold so many farmers and goat herders among the real terrorists at Guantanamo? Among the reasons:

 

After conceding control of the country to U.S.-backed Afghan forces in late 2001, top Taliban and al Qaida leaders escaped to Pakistan, leaving the battlefield filled with ragtag groups of volunteers and conscripts who knew nothing about global terrorism.

 

The majority of the detainees taken to Guantanamo came into U.S. custody indirectly, from Afghan troops, warlords, mercenaries and Pakistani police who often were paid cash by the number and alleged importance of the men they handed over. Foot soldiers brought in hundreds of dollars, but commanders were worth thousands. Because of the bounties — advertised in fliers that U.S. planes dropped all over Afghanistan in late 2001 — there was financial incentive for locals to lie about the detainees' backgrounds."

 

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/detainees/story/38773.html

[Kubin]

"U.S. abuse of detainees was routine at Afghanistan bases.

 

(...)

 

The guards kicked, kneed and punched many of the men until they collapsed in pain. U.S. troops shackled and dragged other detainees to small isolation rooms, then hung them by their wrists from chains dangling from the wire mesh ceiling.

 

Former guards and detainees whom McClatchy interviewed said Bagram was a center of systematic brutality for at least 20 months, starting in late 2001. Yet the soldiers responsible have escaped serious punishment."

 

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/detainees/story/38775.html

[freke]

Yet the soldiers responsible have escaped serious punishment."

Å, jeg vet ikke. De vender jo hjem med krigspsykoser. De som ikke tar livet av seg, går ofte til grunne på andre måter. Evt. tar de et våpen og skyter/mishandler noen hjemme eller på gaten, av "gammel vane". Det går ganske mange tidsinnstillte bomber løs i USA.

[Kubin]

"Sex Crimes in the White House.

 

(...)

 

We now know that the torture of prisoners was the result of a policy set in the White House by former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Vice President Dick Cheney, and Rice -- who actually chaired the torture meetings. The Pentagon has also acknowledged that it had authorized sexualized abuse of detainees as part of interrogation practices to be performed by female operatives. And documents obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union have Rumsfeld, in his own words, checking in on the sexualized humiliation of prisoners.

 

The sexualization of torture from the top basically turned Abu Ghraib and Guantnamo Bay into an organized sex-crime ring in which the trafficked sex slaves were US-held prisoners. Looking at the classic S and M nature of some of this torture, it is hard not to speculate that someone setting policy was aroused by all of this. And Phillipe Sands' impeccably documented Torture Team: Rumsfeld's Memo and the Betrayal of American Values, now proves that sex crime was authorized and, at least one source reports, eroticized: Diane Beaver, the Staff Judge Advocate at Guantanamo who signed off on many torture techniques, told Sands about brainstorming sessions that included the use of sexual tension, which was "culturally taboo, disrespectful, humiliating and potentially unexpected."

 

"These brainstorming meetings at Guantanamo produced animated discussion," writes Sands. "Who has the glassy eyes?" Beaver asked herself as she surveyed the men around the room, thirty or more of them. She was invariably the only woman in the room, keeping control of the boys. The younger men would get excited, agitated, even: "You could almost see their dicks getting hard as they got new ideas" (reported Beaver).

 

(...)

 

...sex crimes that US leaders either authorized or tolerated are (...) staring Americans in the face: the images of male prisoners with their heads hooded with women's underwear; the documented reports of female US soldiers deployed to smear menstrual blood on the faces of male prisoners, and of military interrogators or contractors forcing prisoners to simulate sex with each other, to penetrate themselves with objects, or to submit to being penetrated by objects. Indeed, the Military Commissions Act of 2006 was written deliberately with loopholes that gave immunity to perpetrators of many kinds of sexual humiliation and abuse.

 

(...)

 

Sexual abuse in US-operated prisons got worse and worse over time, ultimately including, according to doctors who examined detainees, anal sodomy."

 

http://www.alternet.org/rights/90657/?ses=...aec508b0b7eac35

 

( Den kjente journalisten Seymor Hersh meldte i 2004 at Bush-administrasjonen satt på noen ganske spesielle videoer fra Abu Ghraib :

 

"At an ACLU convention in July 2004, he further detailed information he had been given about sexual tortures in Abu Ghraib [8]. He claims that there is video footage, being held by the Bush administration, of Iraqi guards raping young boys in the prison. "The boys were sodomized with the cameras rolling, and the worst part is the soundtrack, of the boys shrieking. And this is your government at war." "

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seymour_Hersh )

Endret 7. juli 2008 av Kubin

[monzilla]

Kan trådstarter gjerne definere litt nærmere hva vi skal diskutere her?

[Kubin]

Kan trådstarter gjerne definere litt nærmere hva vi skal diskutere her?

 

Bruk litt mer tid på det jeg akkurat postet Monzilla.

 

( Og det spørsmålet jeg startet tråden med, er fortsatt med her. )

[Ballemannen]

Selv om disse monstrene liker å torturere folk til døde, så er det kanskje allikevel litt skuffende for dem at det ikke virker da.

 

Avhørseksperter fra FBI, CIA og militæret sier at folk sier hva som helst for å stoppe smertepåføringen. De sier det de tror torturisten vil høre.

 

Fra Army Field Manual 34-52, kapittel 1

"Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

 

En deklassifisert FBI e-post 10.mai 2004 sier: explained to [the Department of Defense], FBI has been successful for many years obtaining confessions via non-confrontational interviewing techniques."

 

Den pensjonerte brigaderen David R. Irvine, etterretningsoffiser og lærer ved Sixth Army Intelligence School sier at tortur ikke hjelper.

 

Tidligere FBI avhørsmann - som avhørte Al Qaeda mistenkte - sier kategorisk at tortur ikke hjelper å samle opplysninger. Tvert imot gjør det folk til terrorister.

 

Disse folka sier det samme:

• Former high-level CIA official Bob Baer said "And torture -- I just don't think it really works ... you don't get the truth. What happens when you torture people is, they figure out what you want to hear and they tell you."
  
• Rear Admiral (ret.) John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General for the Navy, said "Another objection is that torture doesn't work. All the literature and experts say that if we really want usable information, we should go exactly the opposite way and try to gain the trust and confidence of the prisoners."
  
• Michael Scheuer, formerly a senior CIA official in the Counter-Terrorism Center, said "I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear."
  
• Dan Coleman, one of the FBI agents assigned to the 9/11 suspects held at Guantanamo said "Brutalization doesn't work. We know that. "
  

Les, les og les.

 

"To make them confess--what?" Twain asked. "Truth? Or lies? How can one know which it is they are telling? For under unendurable pain a man confesses anything that is required of him, true or false, and his evidence is worthless." -Time Magazine

 

Men dersom målet er å tvinge fram falske tilståelser og vitneforklaringer for å ha noen å legge skylda på, så fungerer det jo brillefint.

[freke]

Kan trådstarter gjerne definere litt nærmere hva vi skal diskutere her?

Debattanten skal kanskje forsøke seg i tråder der vedkommende skjønner temaet?

[monzilla]

Dette er ikke en debatt. Se bare på innleggene da. Er kun copypaste fra diverse nettsider. Forsøk om å spre mest eder og galle om USA og de som styrer der borte.

 

Og nå kommer konspirasjonsteoriene. Du skal få slippe å se mer til meg i denne tråde. Kos deg i en saklig, objektiv debatt.

[freke]

Avhørseksperter fra FBI, CIA og militæret sier at folk sier hva som helst for å stoppe smertepåføringen. De sier det de tror torturisten vil høre.

Det er vel ikke akkurat uten grunn at så utallig mange hekser kunne sverge på at de faktisk dro til Blokksberg på sopelime og hadde uhellige orgier med ikke bare selveste Satan, men også med mange av hans demoner. Innrømmelsene ble ikke gitt som en lignelse, men de hevdet det var dette som bokstavelig talt skjedde. De fløy faktisk gjennom luften på en sopelime. Snedig. Eller typisk tilståelse gitt under tortur.

[Ballemannen]

Og nå kommer konspirasjonsteoriene. Du skal få slippe å se mer til meg i denne tråde. Kos deg i en saklig, objektiv debatt.

HAHA, er det en konspirasjonsteori at folk mener at tortur ikke virker etter hensikten?

[Ockham]

Debattanten skal kanskje forsøke seg i tråder der vedkommende skjønner temaet?

 

En diskusjon trenger gjerne mer enn et tema, som ofte hjelper det med en problemstilling eller påstand. Drøssevis av copy-paste seksjoner fra diverse "alternative" sider er nødvendigvis ikke en diskusjon.