Hvordan ser du på Israel? Som en terrorstat eller en stat som kjemper mot terrorisme? (Oppdatert åpningsinnlegg)

[GrandMa]

Joda, Allcolor. Sivile blir brukt som levende skjold av terroristene.

 

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/11/03/481771.html

[herzeleid]

Glimti: jeg vet ikke om du gjør deg vanskeligere enn du er eller om du har litt tungt for å forstå ting men nå har du blitt forklart forskjellen på når terroristene målrettet dreper sivile og når andre dreper sivile som en følge av at de befinner seg rundt målet som blir bombet. Israelerne prøver ikke å drepe sivile og de bruker ikke drap på fiendens sivile som ett politisk virkemiddel slik terroristene gjør. Dette kan det strengt tatt ikke finnes tvil om og at terroristene som målrettet dreper sivile for å oppnå noe er terrorister hersker det da ingen tvil om. Hvorvidt det palestinske folket er undertrykket og bare gjør det de må eller ikke er da irrelevant fordi det er like fult terrorisme.

[Geir M]

Som en terrorstat, som bruker terror for å bekjempe terrorisme.

[stwa]

Glimti:

 

Hvis vi skal fortsette denne diskusjonen er det viktig at du innser fakta og ikke begrunner innleggene dine på pesonlige meninger, antagelser og løgn!

 

For det første må du sette deg inn i hva terrorisme er! Når du har gjort det vil du innse at at det palestinerne driver med faktisk ER terrorisme!! Da hjelper det ikke å komme med at " det er en kamp for frigjøring".. Hvis alle skulle følge din tankegang kunne man sikker finne en rekke unskyldninger til at 11. september angrepene ikke var terror angrep!!

 

Videre er det en stor forskjell på angepene israel gjør og de palestinerne driver på med! Som det er utallige ganger her er presisert angriper de israelske styrkene militære mål (noe som ikke er terrorisme!) mens palestinerne angiper sivile mål KUN for å drepe sivile! Som sakt en STOR forskjell!! Ja israelerne dreper også sivile, men dette er noe de ikke kan unngå når terroristene med vilje bruker sivile palestinere som levende skjold!

Endret 14. september 2008 av stwa

[Decline]

IDF (de israelske okkupasjonsstyrkene) har jo rimelig...spesielle... metoder. F.eks om de tror det bor en Hamas-aktivist/politiker i et område, så bomber de gjerne hele området, inkludert naboene, ja selv om det skulle være et sykehus som nabo. IDF skyter også etter tilfeldige palestinske bønder, fiskere osv. de møter på. De skyter etter ubevæpna demonstranter (en praksis som har blitt kritisert av blant annet Amnesty), det er lov for IDF å skyte barn ned til 12 år.

 

Human Rights Watch sier:

"… a leading source of human rights abuse in Hebron is the excessive use of lethal force by Israeli security forces in clashes with Palestinian demonstrators, many of whom are unarmed and pose no dire threat to the Israeli security personnel, or anybody else… Many of the Palestinians who have been killed or hurt by IDF fire in the vicinity of demonstrations were pedestrians - this fact conveys a hint that some IDF soldiers have fired indiscriminately in populated areas."

 

Og israelske B'tselem:

"… beatings and abuse by members of the security forces have become part of the daily routine of Palestinian residents of the Occupied Territories. Although most cases of abuse are ‘low intensity’ ones, such as slaps, kicks, insults, unnecessary delays at blocks or humiliating treatment, periodically, cases of severe violence are uncovered… To this day, the military establishment has made no real effort to unequivocally articulate to its forces in the Occupied Territories that abuse is strictly forbidden, and that those who conduct such acts will be severely punished… Testimonies of such abuse constantly reach B'Tselem and other human rights organizations. The fact that the soldiers did not bother to deny their actions when speaking to a B'Tselem researcher, and in fact justified them, is the best proof that the military's education and information activities against such violence are mere lip service, rather than a frank attempt to eliminate the phenomenon once and for all."

[GrandMa]

IDF (de israelske okkupasjonsstyrkene) har jo rimelig...spesielle... metoder. F.eks om de tror det bor en Hamas-aktivist/politiker i et område, så bomber de gjerne hele området, inkludert naboene, ja selv om det skulle være et sykehus som nabo. IDF skyter også etter tilfeldige palestinske bønder, fiskere osv. de møter på. De skyter etter ubevæpna demonstranter (en praksis som har blitt kritisert av blant annet Amnesty), det er lov for IDF å skyte barn ned til 12 år.

 

Det at sivile havner i skuddlinjen er ikke et fenomen unikt for Israel-Palestina-konflikten. I tillegg er det virkelig ikke så svart-hvitt som at "F.eks om de tror det bor en Hamas-aktivist/politiker i et område, så bomber de gjerne hele området, inkludert naboene, ja selv om det skulle være et sykehus som nabo."

 

IDF: Terrorists use civilians as human shields.

 

IDF sources said that the family's house was located at an area from which terror organizations regularly launch Qassams at Israel. Army officials stated that an initial inquiry into the incident indicated that the IDF shelled the area, but that they were still investigating the mater.

 

"We regret any harm caused to civilians, this is not our intention, but it is the terror groups that force us to fire at populated areas," an army source explained.

 

However, a senior IDF officer told Ynet that hurting children and the publication of pictures from such strikes undermine the legitimacy Israel enjoys in its war on Qassams.

 

"That's exactly the dilemma. If we don't expand our shooting range and fire at all the places terrorists are at, this will impede our efforts to eliminate rocket attacks. On the other hand, we have no intention to kill kids. The terrorists are cynically exploiting the children," he said.

 

IDF sources added that rockets were fired throughout the day from the area targeted in the army's strike Monday afternoon. "The residents know that terrorists operate from there and that the IDF retaliates. We distributed leaflets to locals in which we explained these are danger zones."

 

The officials also stated that the terrorists intentionally fire Qassams from behind houses, in a bid to transform the buildings and their residents into human shields.

 

"The populated area that was required to be evacuated is very small. The leaflets we distributed were not for show, and were intended to warn the Palestinians from falling victim to the terror cells," an army officer explained.

 

The B'Tselem human rights group said that Israel bears the legal responsibility for the girl's death. "The child's killing is the inevitable result of narrowing the safety range of artillery fire from civilians' houses," the group said in a statement.

 

Civilians in the line of fire

 

In IDF bombardments of Gaza last week, the army fired 1000 shells at the Strip in response to Qassam attacks at the western Negev.

 

In the framework of the recent escalation in the war between Palestinian rocket launchers and the IDF, the Palestinian civilians residing in the line of fire seem to have been forgotten. These people have over the last weeks sustained shrapnel injuries and damages to their houses.

 

The IDF said in response that "there is no intention to target populated centers or civilians, and we lament any such hit."

 

The areas in the northern Strip have long ago ceased to function as residential regions. Caught between the Palestinian gunmen and the Israeli shells, residents describe a sense of living in constant fear, "like being stranded in a shooting range."

 

"Life in recent weeks is unnatural. It's like a war movie, a horror flick that gets more terrifying by the second," Osama al-Bidi, 27, a Beit Lahiya resident said.

 

"Wherever you go you see houses full of holes and shrapnel, damaged houses. Some of the houses are deserted because dozens of families left. How can these people go back to their houses in this situation?" he asked.

 

Det at IDF skyter etter tilfeldige fiskere og bønder ønsker jeg en link på. Høres ikke helt sannsynlig ut at det er akkurat slik du sier.

 

IDF bruker ikke andre metoder for å stoppe demonstrasjoner enn andre land. Tåregass og gummikuler.

 

Rubber bullets are rubber or rubber-coated projectiles fired from firearms. They are usually non-lethal, unless fired at short range, but are often heavy enough to pierce skin. Rubber, plastic, wax, and wooden bullets are often used in riot control and to disperse protests.

 

Lachrymatory agents are commonly used as riot control agents and chemical warfare agents. For example, tear gas and pepper spray are commonly used for riot control.

 

Har IDF "lov" til å skyte barn ned til 12 år? Det høres veldig spekulativt ut. Har du en link?

[Arne]

Jeg vil be om at folk (sikter til decline) forholder seg til fakta og dokumenterer eventuelle påstander. Dersom det er sant at IDF har lov av styresmaktene i Israel å skyte 12-åringer, bør du dokumentere det.

 

Jeg skal og ha linker på tilfeldige angrep på bønder/fiskere.

[Decline]

Det at sivile havner i skuddlinjen er ikke et fenomen unikt for Israel-Palestina-konflikten. I tillegg er det virkelig ikke så svart-hvitt som at "F.eks om de tror det bor en Hamas-aktivist/politiker i et område, så bomber de gjerne hele området, inkludert naboene, ja selv om det skulle være et sykehus som nabo."

 

Jeg tror du bør slå opp et begrep i forhold til krigføring som kalles "proporsjonalitet"... Å bombe et nabolag fordi det kan befinne seg et Hamas-medlem der er... litt spesielt.

 

 

 

IDF: Terrorists use civilians as human shields.

 

IDF sources said that the family's house was located at an area from which terror organizations regularly launch Qassams at Israel. Army officials stated that an initial inquiry into the incident indicated that the IDF shelled the area, but that they were still investigating the mater.

 

"We regret any harm caused to civilians, this is not our intention, but it is the terror groups that force us to fire at populated areas," an army source explained.

 

However, a senior IDF officer told Ynet that hurting children and the publication of pictures from such strikes undermine the legitimacy Israel enjoys in its war on Qassams.

 

"That's exactly the dilemma. If we don't expand our shooting range and fire at all the places terrorists are at, this will impede our efforts to eliminate rocket attacks. On the other hand, we have no intention to kill kids. The terrorists are cynically exploiting the children," he said.

 

IDF sources added that rockets were fired throughout the day from the area targeted in the army's strike Monday afternoon. "The residents know that terrorists operate from there and that the IDF retaliates. We distributed leaflets to locals in which we explained these are danger zones."

 

The officials also stated that the terrorists intentionally fire Qassams from behind houses, in a bid to transform the buildings and their residents into human shields.

 

"The populated area that was required to be evacuated is very small. The leaflets we distributed were not for show, and were intended to warn the Palestinians from falling victim to the terror cells," an army officer explained.

 

The B'Tselem human rights group said that Israel bears the legal responsibility for the girl's death. "The child's killing is the inevitable result of narrowing the safety range of artillery fire from civilians' houses," the group said in a statement.

 

Civilians in the line of fire

 

In IDF bombardments of Gaza last week, the army fired 1000 shells at the Strip in response to Qassam attacks at the western Negev.

 

In the framework of the recent escalation in the war between Palestinian rocket launchers and the IDF, the Palestinian civilians residing in the line of fire seem to have been forgotten. These people have over the last weeks sustained shrapnel injuries and damages to their houses.

 

The IDF said in response that "there is no intention to target populated centers or civilians, and we lament any such hit."

 

The areas in the northern Strip have long ago ceased to function as residential regions. Caught between the Palestinian gunmen and the Israeli shells, residents describe a sense of living in constant fear, "like being stranded in a shooting range."

 

"Life in recent weeks is unnatural. It's like a war movie, a horror flick that gets more terrifying by the second," Osama al-Bidi, 27, a Beit Lahiya resident said.

 

"Wherever you go you see houses full of holes and shrapnel, damaged houses. Some of the houses are deserted because dozens of families left. How can these people go back to their houses in this situation?" he asked.

 

 

Det at IDF skyter etter tilfeldige fiskere og bønder ønsker jeg en link på. Høres ikke helt sannsynlig ut at det er akkurat slik du sier.

 

Har ikke zionistene fortalt deg om dette? Ops.

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=S...ls&ID=30733

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=S...ls&ID=30349

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=S...ls&ID=29782

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=S...ls&ID=27206

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=S...ls&ID=16010

bare et par eksempler fra hverdagen i Palestina.

 

 

For ikke å snakke om nybyggernes terrorisme:

http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/2ee946874...33;OpenDocument

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=S...ls&ID=30340

 

IDF bruker ikke andre metoder for å stoppe demonstrasjoner enn andre land. Tåregass og gummikuler.

 

 

Rubber bullets are rubber or rubber-coated projectiles fired from firearms. They are usually non-lethal, unless fired at short range, but are often heavy enough to pierce skin. Rubber, plastic, wax, and wooden bullets are often used in riot control and to disperse protests.

 

Lachrymatory agents are commonly used as riot control agents and chemical warfare agents. For example, tear gas and pepper spray are commonly used for riot control.

 

Ja det er jo helt forferdelig at palestinerne skal holde på å demonstrere på sitt eget land! Da fortjener de å bli skutt med "gummikuler" som sender folk på sykehus, og barn i døden! Skulle bare mangle!

 

 

Har IDF "lov" til å skyte barn ned til 12 år? Det høres veldig spekulativt ut. Har du en link?

 

En IDF-soldat som avslører litt og annet om IDFs rutiner. F.eks mener de det er smartere å skyte for å drepe enn for å skade, fordi folkene rundt visstnok blir sintere når kameratene blir skadet. Og det med 12-årsgrensa.

 

“They talk to us about this a lot. They forbid us to shoot at children.”

 

How do they say this?

 

“You don’t shoot a child who is 12 or younger.”

 

That is, a child of 12 or older is allowed?

 

“Twelve and up is allowed. He’s not a child any more, he’s already after his bar mitzvah. Something like that.”

 

Thirteen is bar mitzvah age.

 

“Twelve and up, you’re allowed to shoot. That’s what they tell us.”

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/hass.html

 

(de som står bak intervjuet er fra israelske Ha'aretz, så det skal godt gjøres å klage på kilden)

[GrandMa]

Haha. Dårlig forsøk. Du sier at IDF går rundt å skyter tilfeldige fiskere og bønder, mens alle bortsett fra 2 av linkene ikke har noe med IDF som angriper tilfeldige bønder å gjøre. I den ene linken står det helt klart:

 

The Israeli military announced on Friday that it would reserve fire on any Palestinians who come within 300 meters of the Israel-Gaza border, despite the ceasefire. Earlier on Sunday, the Israeli military took over the frequencies of local radio stations to warn locals than anyone who approaches the border would be shot.

 

Den andre er veldig kort og vanskelig å bli klok på.

 

Jeg tror ikke de israelske styrkene har noe problem med at palestinerne demonstrer, men det er en ganske annen sak når de begynner å kaste steiner, brannbomber og liknende.

 

Angående 12-årsgrensen er du jo jævlig selektiv.

 

They gave you video cameras.

 

“They call this a documentation kit, and see to it that every person killed is photographed. And then it will be confirmed that he was not under the age of 12, that he was holding a gun.”

 

That is, the Palestinian figures are false?

 

“It’s hard for me to determine, but I can remember a few cases when we definitely shot at adults and we prayed that the soldier in charge of the kit had filmed it because there they will accuse us of having killed a child. It could be that there are mistaken statements, there are also errors, and a child was killed because of a soldier’s stupid mistake. And I haven’t heard them publicizing this (in the Israel Defense Forces) afterward.”

 

Saken er ikke at de har lov til å skyte barn over 12, men at de ikke skyter barn under 12 uansett hva barnet driver med.

Endret 14. september 2008 av GrandMa

[Decline]

Haha. Dårlig forsøk. Du sier at IDF går rundt å skyter tilfeldige fiskere og bønder, mens alle bortsett fra 2 av linkene ikke har noe med IDF som angriper tilfeldige bønder å gjøre. I den ene linken står det helt klart:

 

The Israeli military announced on Friday that it would reserve fire on any Palestinians who come within 300 meters of the Israel-Gaza border, despite the ceasefire. Earlier on Sunday, the Israeli military took over the frequencies of local radio stations to warn locals than anyone who approaches the border would be shot.

 

Den andre er veldig kort og vanskelig å bli klok på.

 

Det var som sagt bare random linker. Men hvorfor skulle IDF ha rett til å skyte på fiskere som er i palestinsk farvann?

 

En til link med litt diverse drap:

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=S...ls&ID=30088

 

 

Jeg tror ikke de israelske styrkene har noe problem med at palestinerne demonstrer, men det er en ganske annen sak når de begynner å kaste steiner, brannbomber og liknende.

 

Javel? Så det er greit å skyte for å drepe om noen kaster stein mot profesjonelle soldater? Syns du det hadde vært greit i Norge også?

 

 

Angående 12-årsgrensen er du jo jævlig selektiv.

 

They gave you video cameras.

 

“They call this a documentation kit, and see to it that every person killed is photographed. And then it will be confirmed that he was not under the age of 12, that he was holding a gun.”

 

That is, the Palestinian figures are false?

 

“It’s hard for me to determine, but I can remember a few cases when we definitely shot at adults and we prayed that the soldier in charge of the kit had filmed it because there they will accuse us of having killed a child. It could be that there are mistaken statements, there are also errors, and a child was killed because of a soldier’s stupid mistake. And I haven’t heard them publicizing this (in the Israel Defense Forces) afterward.”

 

Saken er ikke at de har lov til å skyte barn over 12, men at de ikke skyter barn under 12 uansett hva barnet driver med.

 

Ser ikke helt hvorfor jeg skulle være selektiv, jeg har heller aldri sagt at barn blir skutt uansett hva de har i hendene. Jeg siterte bare hva soldaten selv sa. Det du siterer motsier ingenting av det. Når han f.eks sier:

"But a child of 13 doesn’t bear arms, no matter what you call him, a boy or a teenager or an adult.

 

“He isn’t holding a gun but a firebomb, and in certain places it is possible also to fire on people who throw firebombs.”

 

- så er jo dette rimelig klart? Om en 13-åring holder en brannbombe, kan han bli skutt på ifølge IDF. Det virker som du prøver å vri deg unna disse sakene ved å kverulere på detaljer.

[Decline]

Mer snacks fra israelske B'tselem:

In addition to shooting, in recent months Israel Navy crews have used a new method of humiliating and abusing the fishermen. B'Tselem has learned of many cases in which the sailors stopped fisherman off the coast, particularly opposite Rafah, forced them to go further out to sea and then ordered them, under threat of firearms, to undress and swim dozens of meters in the sea to the navy ship, despite the bitter cold. The sailors threatened to shoot anyone who did not want to jump in because he didn't know how to swim. The fishermen were ordered to swim to a rescue float that the soldiers threw into the water, but the soldiers yanked at the float just before the fishermen reached it. After being taken on board, the ship sailed to Ashdod Port. On the way, the fishermen were kept on deck in their soaked underwear, exposed to the wind and the spray of water. At the port, the fishermen were held for from fourteen to twenty-four hours, their hands cuffed and their eyes covered, and interrogated. In some cases, they were given military clothes and were offered food and a hot beverage. At the end of the interrogation, they were taken back to the ship and returned to where their boat had been anchored. The sailors then forced them to undress again and swim to their boat. In some instances, their clothes had been blown into the sea, so they had to make their way to shore in their soaked underwear. In rare cases, the fishermen were returned to the Gaza Strip via Erez Crossing.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip/..._on_fishing.asp

 

I 2007 ble 133 av 379 palestinere drept "not participating in hostilities when killed". I 2006 var det 326 av 657. Sier dette deg noe overhodet?

 

Mer fra B'tselem:

For example, when conducting an arrest

operation, soldiers are permitted to fire live

ammunition at a suspect who is fleeing

from a house, without warning and without

ascertaining the identity of the person

fleeing. In such situations, the regulations

also allow firing “warning” shots toward a

house in which the army believes a wanted

person is hiding. The firing is allowed even

if the soldiers know that innocent civilians,

including children, are in the house.

 

(...)

 

According to testimonies

given to B’Tselem, certain units are ordered to open fire

automatically at any person approaching the fence, without

giving prior warning and regardless of the circumstances or

the identity of the person. This practice is particularly grave

due to the lack of demarcation, by signs or otherwise, of the

area to which entry is prohibited. In 2007, security forces killed

53 Palestinians who tried to cross the Gaza perimeter fence

or were near the fence, in some cases even at a distance

greater than 100 meters. Of these, at least 16 were unarmed

and not engaged in the hostilities, including 8 minors. In 2006,

these figures stood at 43, 18 of them civilians not involved in

the hostilities.

 

(...)

 

In 2007, B’Tselem documented in detail 74 cases in which security forces beat (by punching, kicking, clubbing, or

hitting with rifle butts), humiliated, or threatened Palestinians. The perpetrators were soldiers (in 41 cases), Border

Police officers (27 cases), and members of the regular police (6 cases). In all these cases, B’Tselem requested that

the authorities open a criminal investigation.

 

(...)

 

In 2007, the phenomenon of Israeli soldiers using

Palestinians as human shields continued. This practice

involves forcing Palestinians to perform dangerous

military tasks or to protect soldiers from gunfire

 

(...)

 

According to B’Tselem’s last count in November 2007,

Israel held 847 Palestinians, including 18 minors and

two women, in administrative detention. These people

are being held solely as a result of an administrative

decision, without being charged with an offense and

with no intention of the authorities to file such charges.

Kilde: http://www.btselem.org/Download/200712_Annual_Report_eng.pdf

[GrandMa]

Det var som sagt bare random linker. Men hvorfor skulle IDF ha rett til å skyte på fiskere som er i palestinsk farvann?

 

Vanskelig å si noe om denne saken ettersom det står 2 linjer om dette i linken din. Det står ikke mer enn at de skjøt mot noen fiskere. Hvorfor er jo viktig å finne ut av.

 

Javel? Så det er greit å skyte for å drepe om noen kaster stein mot profesjonelle soldater? Syns du det hadde vært greit i Norge også?

 

Har jeg sagt det? Nei. Det er uhorvelig med forskjell på levende ammunisjon og gummikuler. Det er selvfølgelig greit å bruke gummikuler/tåregass for å holde opprør og demonstrasjoner under kontroll.

 

Ser ikke helt hvorfor jeg skulle være selektiv, jeg har heller aldri sagt at barn blir skutt uansett hva de har i hendene. Jeg siterte bare hva soldaten selv sa. Det du siterer motsier ingenting av det. Når han f.eks sier:

"But a child of 13 doesn’t bear arms, no matter what you call him, a boy or a teenager or an adult.

 

“He isn’t holding a gun but a firebomb, and in certain places it is possible also to fire on people who throw firebombs.”

 

- så er jo dette rimelig klart? Om en 13-åring holder en brannbombe, kan han bli skutt på ifølge IDF. Det virker som du prøver å vri deg unna disse sakene ved å kverulere på detaljer.

 

Om en 13-åring holder en brannbombe/våpen og bruker dette mot israelerne er det jo vanskelig å finne noen annen løsning enn å skyte. Selvfølgelig trist, men jeg lurer heller på hvorfor denne 13-åringen har dette våpenet.

[stwa]

Er enig med grandma her.. Enten er palestinerne stokk dumme eller så prøver de å lage martyrer av barn! Er jo ikke verre en at foreldrene holder ungene unna slike farlige siutasjoner!!

[Coa]

Jeg er mot generell undertrykking, så støtter derfor Palestina

 

Se filmen hos Youtube

[Aquabat]

*Youtube-video*

Du er klar over at åpningsklippet som videoen din starter med er ettertrykkelig tilbakevist som en palestinsk propagandabløff?

[Decline]

Vanskelig å si noe om denne saken ettersom det står 2 linjer om dette i linken din. Det står ikke mer enn at de skjøt mot noen fiskere. Hvorfor er jo viktig å finne ut av.

 

Hvorfor skulle de i det heletatt skyte etter fiskere? Finner du noen logisk årsak? Utgjør agnene en sikkerhetstrussel kanskje?

 

 

Har jeg sagt det? Nei. Det er uhorvelig med forskjell på levende ammunisjon og gummikuler. Det er selvfølgelig greit å bruke gummikuler/tåregass for å holde opprør og demonstrasjoner under kontroll.

 

 

La meg trekke fram B'tselem igjen:

Rubber-coated steel bullets - "rubber bullets"

 

The Israeli security forces' arsenal of means to disperse demonstrations in the Occupied Territories includes the use of "rubber" bullets. These bullets are, in fact, steel bullets with thin rubber coats. Their use to disperse demonstrations is based on security officials' belief that "rubber" bullets are less lethal than live ammunition and that, therefore, they are appropriate for use in situations which are not life-threatening to security forces or other persons.

 

The drafters of the Open-Fire Regulations, however, were aware of the danger inherent in the use of "rubber bullets." The Regulations emphasize that "The means for dispersing the riot may cause bodily injury and in certain circumstances also death." Because rubber-coated steel bullets are intended for use where soldiers or other persons are not in life-threatening situations, the Regulations stipulate several restrictions concerning their use. According to the defense establishment, these provisions prevent the bullet from causing serious or fatal injury.

 

According to these rules, the minimum range for firing "rubber" bullets is forty meters, and use is limited to specially trained personnel. The Regulations emphasize that the bullets must be fired only at the individual's legs, and that they are not to be fired at children or from a moving vehicle.

 

The permission to fire potentially lethal rubber-coated steel bullets at Palestinians to disperse "violent riots" or demonstrations has led to the deaths of dozens of Palestinians. Viewing rubber-coated steel bullets as "less lethal" than live ammunition leads one to possess a light trigger-finger. This phenomenon is only supported by the view of State Attorney's Office that these deaths are "unavoidable mistakes."

http://www.btselem.org/English/Firearms/Ru...ted_Bullets.asp

 

Så igjen - er å drepe demonstranter greit?

 

Om en 13-åring holder en brannbombe/våpen og bruker dette mot israelerne er det jo vanskelig å finne noen annen løsning enn å skyte. Selvfølgelig trist, men jeg lurer heller på hvorfor denne 13-åringen har dette våpenet.

 

For det første skjer altså dette, som sagt, på palestinsk jord. Hvilken trussel utgjør det da mot israelere? De eneste det måtte utgjøre en trussel for er (a) palestinere, (b) ingen, og/eller, © israelske okkupasjonssoldater.

 

At barn blir opprørt når familie og kjente blir sprengt i biter, arrestert og torturert, banket opp på gata osv. - syns ikke jeg er så veldig merkelig du. Det som er merkeligere er folk som forsvarer overgriperne.

 

*Youtube-video*

Du er klar over at åpningsklippet som videoen din starter med er ettertrykkelig tilbakevist som en palestinsk propagandabløff?

 

Helt riktig, men så var det altså heller ikke et klipp, men et bilde. Ett bilde av....veldig mange. Hva syns du om resten da?

[Pricks]

Jeg er mot generell undertrykking, så støtter derfor Palestina

Derfor støttet du også Tyskland under WWII fordi de ble undertrykket av de allierte?

 

 

F.eks om de tror det bor en Hamas-aktivist/politiker i et område, så bomber de gjerne hele området, inkludert naboene, ja selv om det skulle være et sykehus som nabo.

Kilde/eksempel på at de bomber HELE området? Hva mener du, at de sender bomber på mål rundt også?

 

De skyter etter ubevæpna demonstranter (en praksis som har blitt kritisert av blant annet Amnesty),

Selvsagt skyter de hvis rasende demonstranter kommer mot dem med stein, flasker og annet og de ikke har noe annet valg. Jeg vil forresten ha en konkret kilde/eksempel.

 

I 2007 ble 133 av 379 palestinere drept "not participating in hostilities when killed". I 2006 var det 326 av 657. Sier dette deg noe overhodet?

Ja, at palestinske terrorister er feiginger som liker å bruke egne sivile som skjold.

[Kubin]

Som det er blitt presisert før var det ikke israelske styrker som utførte massakrene på Sabra og Shatila.

 

The Sabra and Shatila massacre (or Sabra and Chatila massacre; Arabic: مذبحة صبرا وشاتيلا) was a massacre carried out between the 15 and 16 September 1982 by the Christian Lebanese Forces militia group. Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) allowed Lebanese Christian Phalangist militiamen to enter two Palestinian refugee camps, and the militia massacred civilians inside. Whether the IDF knew or should have known that a massacre would occur is disputed.

 

 

Kom over denne artikkelen om saken, verdt å lese :

 

"As the mid September 1982 chopping of camp residents with axes, disemboweling with knives, shootings with Israeli supplied silencers, hangings, burnings, live burials, and rapes entered its second day, the Beirut media started to hear 'rumors'. Among the first heard from frantic women was that the Israeli forces were sealing the camps. It was learned three days later that this action was coordinated with the Phalange militia and the Israeli created army in South Lebanon named the "South Lebanon Army" (SLA), under the Command of Saad Haddad, and kept hundreds of women and children from fleeing for their lives. By the second morning (Saturday September 18), following several media and diplomatic inquiries, panic seized the Israeli command post and the organizers tried to cover up their project and flee the area.

 

The World was horrified at the spreading images and even US Envoy Richard Draper, who like many American officials in the current period of history grovel to the Israel lobby, until after leaving office when he became more 'nuanced', blamed Israel. "You sons of bitches! You were in control and you gave us your word" Draper roared to Sharon on Sunday September 19, 1982 according to Israeli military affairs writers, Ze'ef Schiff and Ehud Ya'ari.

 

It was journalist David Lamb who first wrote about the 'walls of death':

 

"Entire families were slain. Groups consisting of 10-20 people were lined up against wall and sprayed with bullets. Mothers died while clutching their babies. All men appeared to be shot in the back. Five youths of fighting age were tied to a pickup truck and dragged through the street before being shot" (LA Times, Sept. 20, 1982).

 

"False accusations like these" Israeli PM Menachem Begin, lectured reporters called into his office, "constitute a blood libel against every Jew, everywhere", as he tried to dampen the international ground swell of accusations. Begin then added, "Goyim kill Goyim and they want to hang the Jews. We are the real victims". "

 

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blo..._shatila_26_yea

 

Annet nytt...

 

Dette er vel en episode som har blitt debattert heftig her :

 

"A report to the UN Human Rights Council on Israel's shelling of Beit Hanoun in Gaza almost two years ago says it may have been a war crime.

 

The report compiled by Archbishop Desmond Tutu casts doubt on Israel's explanation that the shelling resulted from a flawed artillery firing system.

 

It calls on Israel to pay compensation to the victims, 19 of whom were killed.

 

Archbishop Tutu went to Beit Hanoun in May, after objections by Israel delayed his mission several times."

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7617433.stm

 

Om angrepet ble det tidligere sagt :

 

"An IDF spokesperson described the reason for the attack as “preventative” and said that the IDF was seeking to “disrupt and thwart the launching of Qassam rockets into Israel.” The spokesperson said that the basis for picking the target was intelligence that Qassam rockets had been “launched yesterday” (Tuesday) from the site."

 

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/11/10/isrlpa14550.htm

[After Dark]

Slikt Glimti trenger og sette seg litt mer inn i tror jeg.

 

Lurer på om noen av disse hamas\div israel haterne gjords på og få sivile ut i israelsk "fire" som levende skjold og propaganda, bare en tanke jeg gjorde meg. De sprenger seg jo gjerne opp i lufta frivillig, og oppfordrer\lærer sine egne barn å gjør det samme.

 

Kansje du trenger å sette deg litt inn i at Israel har brukt palestinske barn som levende skjold:

 

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=224486

[Benor]

Slikt Glimti trenger og sette seg litt mer inn i tror jeg.

 

Lurer på om noen av disse hamas\div israel haterne gjords på og få sivile ut i israelsk "fire" som levende skjold og propaganda, bare en tanke jeg gjorde meg. De sprenger seg jo gjerne opp i lufta frivillig, og oppfordrer\lærer sine egne barn å gjør det samme.

 

Kansje du trenger å sette deg litt inn i at Israel har brukt palestinske barn som levende skjold:

 

http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/artikkel.php?artid=224486

 

Det virker bare mer og mer riktig å si at Israel er en Terrormakt.