Jeg erklærer meg ikke-religiøs

[chokke]

Det at dere er så sjeldne. Hva forteller det dere?

sikker at det er langt mellom dem som har innsett sannheten

 

God one, men det er bare det at det var nøyaktig det jeg mente selv. Og alle har jo sitt eget syn på alt

Hva skiller deg (og Kakestykke) fra en sinnsyk?

 

 

Hm... sannsynligvis at vi har litt vett i skolten:P

I beg to differ.

Men sånn seriøst, hva skiller deg fra en sinnsyk? Er han sinnsyke dum, er han ikke verdig å leve et normalt liv? Er han en potensiell fare for samfunnet (det er jo forsåvidt ekstremt religiøse og)? Skal han bare bli låst inne (renset?)? Han har jo bare en fantasivenn, en stemme i hodet, et nært forhold til en annen personlighet (Jesus?)?

 

(Ja, jeg bruker han istedet for hun eller h*n, ikke bruk det som et argument).

 

Sinnsyk? At jeg tror på noe 2 millliarder andre gjør og evelusjons teorien som mange andre tror på, gjør det meg Sinnsyk?

Hvor mange som tror på noe har jo ikke en dritt å si. Er det da riktig å hate jøder, negere, funksjonshemmede kun fordi man ikke er alene om noe?

 

Åja, du tror på evolusjon. Nei du er riv ruskende gal, mann!

 

Dessuten å si at Bibelen er funnet opp av mennseker er noe av det frekkeste du kan si til oss kristne! Hvordan kan en person finne opp så mye bra. Bibelen er for GOD til å være funnet opp av mennesker! Du kan tenke at jeg tar feil men det er fordi du har hørt bibelen så mange ganger at det er normalt for deg nå, men den er for GOD til å ha blitt skrevet av mennesker!!!

Vil si du har litt forskrudd syn på visse bøker. Jeg kan si det samme om Ringenes Herre, mange er enige med meg, men fakta er fakta faen.

[freke]

Forskere fant en gang papirusruller som var over 500 år gammle, ingenting var forandret fra den bibelen vi leser i dag.

 

Så disse kirkemøtene er bare historieforfalskning og blank løgn?

[Vipera]

Her fant jeg foresten en liten oppsumering av alle gud har drept Endret 2. januar 2008 av _Viper_

[sCuper]

Du misforsto jeg mente at hvis du sier jeg er sinnsyk sier du at nesten halv verden er sinnsyk

[Tidus-Yuna]

Forskere fant en gang papirusruller som var over 500 år gammle, ingenting var forandret fra den bibelen vi leser i dag.

 

vel, det var jo rundt år 325 at de fleste skriftene ble utelatt, og det ble gjort mye endringer, på et eller annet stort kirkemøte. Min kunnskap om dette strekker seg ikke så langt, men det er ikke det som teller. Alle som har et godt hjerte kan se at bibelen er forskrudd, og religiøse ikke har fattet noe vesentlig i hele tatt. Mennesker som elsker deres urettferdige religion og tro. Det er det handler om! Bruk hjertet og se det!

Endret 2. januar 2008 av Tidus-Yuna

[chokke]

Da sier jeg halve verden er sinnsyk. Ingen mennesker er normale, alle lever inne i sitt eget hode.

[Vipera]

Du misforsto jeg mente at hvis du sier jeg er sinnsyk sier du at nesten halv verden er sinnsyk

 

Mindre enn 1/3, ikke overdriv...

[b-real]

Til en del av dere her:

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

[chokke]

Til en del av dere her:

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

Jeg forstår ikke. Snakker vi ikke med hverandre på menneskelig vis? Hva har norske eventyrfigurer med det her å gjøre?

[b-real]

Jeg forstår ikke. Snakker vi ikke med hverandre på menneskelig vis? Hva har norske eventyrfigurer med det her å gjøre?

Min feil. Trodde de fleste var kjent med dette begrepet.

Mer forklaring kan du finne her:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

[chokke]

Jeg forstår ikke. Snakker vi ikke med hverandre på menneskelig vis? Hva har norske eventyrfigurer med det her å gjøre?

Min feil. Trodde de fleste var kjent med dette begrepet.

Mer forklaring kan du finne her:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

Så var det det å oppdage troll da

[Nimh]

Jeg har spørt mange troende, men ingen har hittils gitt meg et tilfredsstillende svar. Har lyst å spørre deg om det samme Kakestykke: Det finnes jo flere forskjellige religioner med helt forskjellige "historier". Slår ikke dette ihjel hele religions opplegget? Det gjør det nemlig for min del.

[Tidus-Yuna]

jeg vil be alle roe ned den totale unødvendige bruk av quote. Dere trenger ikke å quote hvert eneste innlegg og hvis dere skal quote så vær så snill å fjern unødvendige ting er dere snill. Kommer til å redigere bort det som er av unødvendig bruk av quote og håper at dere kan holde quoten til et minimum =)

 

Jeg skal huske på det, jeg er ny her og ikke vant med forumet. Men jeg skal nok finne ut av den quotingen.

[Tidus-Yuna]

Jeg har spørt mange troende, men ingen har hittils gitt meg et tilfredsstillende svar. Har lyst å spørre deg om det samme Kakestykke: Det finnes jo flere forskjellige religioner med helt forskjellige "historier". Slår ikke dette ihjel hele religions opplegget? Det gjør det nemlig for min del.

 

Bra at du ser dette! Religioner er ikke annet enn menneskers egne oppfinnelser og historier. De får jo mange fordeler av det, å lure folk til å tro det de selv vil. Forestill deg f.eks. hvorfor bibelen sier at de som ikke tror på Jesus, vil gå evig pint i helvete. Nettopp for å vinne tilhengere. Og hva gjorde de "såkalt gode" kristne under inkvisisjonen. Geværet i ene hånda og bibelen i andre! Selvfølgelig er bibelen og alle andre religiøse bøker noe som er tilpasset så det blir løgner som lurer folk.

 

Religiøse vet ingenting om det vesentlige i livet. Men det gjør jeg.

[Vipera]

Religion handler bare om makt som alt annet

[Tidus-Yuna]

Religion handler bare om makt som alt annet

 

Som regel kan man logisk finne ut at de som sitter øverst på tronen, f.eks. øverste religiøse ledere, har en hel haug med penger, vatikanstaten f.eks. har jo flere tonn med gods, gull og verdifull kunst. Og i dagens samfunn vet jo alle at penger er makt. Og de som styrer hele gamet, er som regel de som har mest penger, og vil ha mer og mer makt. Derfor har de i mange år tilpasset skriftene og religiøse bøkene, for å ligne noe som folk kan tro på, og legge til noen trusler for hva som skjer hvis de ikke tror. Det blir ekstra slemt, siden religion da blir basert på en løgn, laget av mennesker.

[Vipera]

Religion handler bare om makt som alt annet

 

Som regel kan man logisk finne ut at de som sitter øverst på tronen, f.eks. øverste religiøse ledere, har en hel haug med penger, vatikanstaten f.eks. har jo flere tonn med gods, gull og verdifull kunst. Og i dagens samfunn vet jo alle at penger er makt. Og de som styrer hele gamet, er som regel de som har mest penger, og vil ha mer og mer makt. Derfor har de i mange år tilpasset skriftene og religiøse bøkene, for å ligne noe som folk kan tro på, og legge til noen trusler for hva som skjer hvis de ikke tror. Det blir ekstra slemt, siden religion da blir basert på en løgn, laget av mennesker.

 

agree

[Petrvs Romanvs]

Kudos til deg Kakestykke for at du tør tenke selv, angående religiøse grupperinger.. denne artikkelen er både interessant og skremmende. For de som vil ha en kortere versjon så har jeg frisert ned artikkelen litt:

 

 

III. Methods of mind control

 

 

1. During initiations and information events, when explaining Zen to an interested audience, the main emphasis is laid on the beneficial aspects of Zen-Meditation on body and mind. Masters or leaders often refer to scientific examinations that prove the positive and healthy effects of Zazen. It is pointed out that this practice is exactly what led the historical Buddha to enlightenment and that it can put an end to all suffering. Some leaders can be brilliant at conferences responding to questions posed from the relative, everyday-life perspective with answers stemming from the absolute point of view of Buddhism and vice versa. Thus, they undermine the seemingly limited understanding of the questioners and often leave them deeply impressed and stupefied.

 

However, what is not mentioned is the fact that it is not about simple meditation at all, but that the practice offered by the AZI is charged with and framed by an ideological system. If one looks close, there is actually no substantial difference to a religion. The whole daily routine is reigned by a meticulous time-schedule not allowing any breakouts or much spare time. Also, it is not allowed that one leaves the "Dojo" (meditation hall; place dedicated for Zazen) during meditation or to skip the meditation except for illness. Developing the purported freedom and independence within an environment of total control, however, is only possible through internalising the whole system. Persons who want to acquire this freedom would therefore tend to adopt this system or leave within short time. Thus, developing the desired mind of "letting go" is actually linked to the precondition of adopting a belief system, too.

 

2. Another deceiving explanation is what I would call equating a unique emotional experience with a "proof" for a complex system of beliefs. To understand this, it is important to know, that the intense practice of meditation ("Zazen") usually sets off very strong and unique emotions, especially when it is done within a large group and under circumstances, which do not allow them to ventilate. We sometimes call this state "sesshin-high" and it is possible that persons can become a sort of "energy-junkies" by Zazen. This unique emotional experience is however labelled and sold as "return to the original state of body and mind", as the "highest state of mind" or as the "mind of Buddha". For lack of other, more rational explanations the practitioners tend to buy this explanation and thus take on the complex ideology linked with this unique experience. Moreover, this experience is regarded as "proof" for the correctness of the ideology skilfully foisted onto it ("proof through reframing"). The energy and the group dynamics exert a very strong pressure towards conformity and would lead sooner or later to a full conversion. This sort of meditation therefore tends to "swallow" the people, and especially the younger ones who are seeking some certainty or group experience. Often people being in this unique emotional state ask for the ordination as "bodhisattva" or monk and nun. Usually, this request is happily granted to them, although it is fairly obvious that these persons are somehow "drunken" and carried away by the group dynamics. They are far from being in a "normal" state of mind. Once they are ordained they would be confronted with higher expectations to take on more responsibilities and engage themselves more intensively for the aim of spreading Zazen. These, in my view typical facts are totally concealed or diminished towards newcomers and most ordinary members.

 

3. The creation of a hidden dualism: The energy this practise usually sets off together with the explanation that Zazen would be the highest state of mind one could ever reach ("in Zazen you are Buddha or God") have other consequences, too. Most of the members usually develop the attitude that the affairs of everyday life like family, friends, work and career are inferior to this practice. It is always maintained that actions in daily life are very important. The fact is, however, that members are praised and acknowledged strictly according to their engagement for Zazen. The more a member would cut off his social bindings, for example spending all of his spare time for visiting weekend-sesshins, the more he would be rewarded and praised by the master. Also, the more one focuses on Zazen the more one receives "responsibilities". This, in turn, leads to being permanently occupied and thus having no more time to reflect one’s own position in life. The underlying message is very clear that it is good to leave the worldly affairs behind and focus all one’s attention on following the master. Although egolessness, self-abandon and non-discrimination are preached constantly, this ideology contains a hidden dualistic judgement itself that is even more dangerous because of its hidden character.

 

One of the problems this leads to is that many persons have, after returning from weekend Sesshins, severe difficulties in adapting to social life again. To escape the presumed "inferior" social world with all its difficulties, people are tempted to visit weekend Sesshins more and more often, finally devoting all of their spare time and money for it. They believe that the sesshin-life has a purifying effect and would represent the "perfect world". They are explained that because of practising Zazen they would develop an egoless, non-dualistic mind, but in reality, a dualistic worldview is upheld and strengthened. It is only hidden and shifted towards another object, but certainly not abandoned. Critically thinking, the desired state of egolessness cannot possibly be reached by anyone. For some moments during meditation it may be possible, but immediately after meditation the ego reappears and manifests itself. Up to today there is no one who has ever been seen having permanently reached this state. The historical Buddha asserted it for himself but this cannot be proved anymore. Again, a matter of belief is sold as a given and provable fact. Because everyone feels this discrepancy, that means that he is far from being egoless, he tends to blame himself and concludes the need for an even harder practice. With only the "master" being able to certify any progress on the spiritual path practitioners become more and more dependant instead of developing independence and freedom.

 

However, taking a look at those "masters" or elder disciples who practise Zazen for many years and even decades, one cannot remark by no means that they would be any better than any other normal person. As to their behaviour, it is often much worse than that of beginners. The higher people climb within the organisation the more they suspend themselves from the rules that are, at the same time, imposed with strictness on others.

 

4. One of the most powerful instruments to influence the participants is the teaching ("Kusen") being held during the meditation itself. That means that people sit face to the wall and meditate, whereas the leader sits in their back, face to the room, and gives an oral "teaching". This speech usually lasts from 10 up to 40 min or longer for each Zazen period. For most of the beginners this represents a nice "entertainment" because Zazen is long, usually painful for the knees and may seem dull or boring. What they do not realise, is that by this method a very complex ideology is directly induced into their minds. During Zazen one is permanently admonished to concentrate on one’s posture and not to follow one’s own thoughts. Whether one agrees with the "teachings" or not, after a while, one will usually give up all possible resistance to it. During a hard long lasting meditation period, concentrating on one’s posture, it is simply impossible to uphold one’s critical conscience. So finally, one resigns and lets it wash over oneself. Deshimaru used to justify the Kusen by saying that he would implant "seeds of wisdom" into the minds of his disciples and that his teaching would be better than his disciples’ thoughts. Today, when questioned, the role of the Kusen during Zazen is permanently played down and diminished.

 

The Kusen has the effect of a straightforward replacement of one’s thoughts and one’s system of values. It is a sort of a "guided meditation" and a method to introduce messages into others in a situation where others cannot decide whether to accept them or not nor pose any critical questions. It penetrates deeply into the unconsciousness where it continues to work and thus has a long-term "oversampling" effect.

 

In contrast to the alleged insignificance of the Kusen, when explaining its purpose to others the leaders themselves put great emphasis on their teachings. They want them to be written down correctly, recorded, translated meticulously, sold and, afterwards, disseminated. Usually two persons are designed to write down and record the Kusen being held during Zazen, one for the French language and one for another language into which the Kusen would be translated simultaneously. I have already seen three persons writing down the Kusen during the meditation. The scenery resembled more a press conference than a "meaningless" sitting without aims or intentions.

 

5. The magical "key-word" used in nearly every second sentence is "ego". It is the personal ego that has to be overcome. The egolessness and the total abandon of oneself is regarded as the highest reachable value on the spiritual path. This has as a consequence that any expression of one’s free will that deviates from the will of the master or leaders would be judged as egoistic and not in accordance with the Way. Of course, the masters’ and leaders’ wills are not egoistic because they claim to express the "Dharma" and be beyond dualistic and self-tainted conceptions. Nearly always, the very complex personal, social or familial situation of a person who does not seem to be "in line" with the ideology is reduced to the simple statement that this persons would only be following his "ego".

 

6. Whereas joining the AZI or one of its affiliated Dojos is a free decision, there is no legitimate reason acknowledged to leave. The wish to leave or to join another group is always criticised as "selfish" and "egoistic". It is never respected as an expression of the leaving member’s free will. Moreover, stopping Zazen is described as the worst solution at all, since this would exacerbate one’s Karma.

 

7. The teachings given are absolutely unassailable. Critical questions are always turned down and deflected to questioner. It is always his "ego" and his lack of understanding which makes him pose that question. The master never commits any mistakes. The ideology is always right. Although questions are allowed in a formalised way, where the questioner comes forward in front of the group, inclines himself and knees in front of the master, it is impossible to subdue the ideology to a rational critique. The usual answer to someone who, after all, is not convinced would be: "Continue Zazen and you’ll understand". So, Zazen is built up into being the ultimate solution for all possible problems one could ever have. If there is a problem that means that there is a "mistake" in the practice. A rational question is always treated as a sign of non-enlightenment or delusion. The masters masterfully undermine the self-confidence of any questioner. These sort of "answers", together with the group pressure, cause the questioner to doubt his own understanding rather than the teachings of the master.

 

What is not admitted or said is that it is highly unfair and not compassionate at all always to deflect a problem to the questioner and place oneself beyond all inquiry. The masters assert that their teachings are not "opinions" and are not a result of their rational thinking but expressions of the "true Dharma". The proclaimed words of "true Dharma" are alleged to come directly from the "sphere beyond thinking".

 

8. The masters perfectly understand to play with group dynamics and with emotions, too. Because everybody is focused on what the master says or does the master often does not need to criticise himself. Thus, he can always seem liberal, open and gentle to anyone. However, a confused look, an astonished mien or a single word of discontent are enough to trigger off harsh criticism and reactions among his devoted followers who subsequently do the job for the master. A simple and not important "mistake" can thus lead to the consequence that one is being told off or reprimanded by up to ten or more different persons. Interestingly, many of the most intelligent and ambitious persons in everyday life get into the highest functions. Instead of being freed from their attachments, their same old behaviour patterns are reinforced and skilfully used for the aims of the organisation. Many of those in positions of authority put in this way into position finally become more rigid and overloaded with the obligation to play a role that does not fit to them. They are unknowingly used as instruments without having their real problems addressed.

 

Of course, this behaviour is interpreted as an advancement on the way because one does not follow one’s ego any more. What really happens is, in my view, that one follows another the ego of another person who, though regarded as being totally selfless, is still playing a role. The described mechanisms also stand in sharp contrast to so-called unconditional love and compassion. In fact, the alleged deep spiritual friendship which one may feel is very fragile because it is solely based on the fact of a commonly shared ideology. It immediately stops as soon as ones overtly differs from it. Upon leaving the organisation all contact with the hundreds of persons I had known immediately stopped. Former long term friendships even turned into enmity and aggressiveness.

 

This list, of course, could be continued further. What I wanted to show is, that even in Buddhist groups, methods are applied, which belong to the classical methods of "mind control". It is important to see that these methods work perfectly no matter if they are applied by a destructive cult or by a group with seemingly good and honourable intentions. The reprehensibility of these methods does not therefore lie in the intentions they are used for, but in the fact that they aim to change a persons without their knowledge or previous consent, thus leading to create an artificial or fake identity of the persons involved. Thus, these methods inherently contradict the idea of an authentic spiritual development and should be abandoned or at least revealed so that they are liberated of their detrimental effects.

 

 

IV. How I got involved and how I finally left...............

 

[vanedyret]

Greit å være relgiøs da. Om 2000 år må man være inter-stellar-tachyon-beam-me-up-faster-than-light-speed-forsker for å forstå en brøkdel av relgionen vitenskap. Anbefaler deg forresten å se filmen The Man from Earth : )

 

http://imdb.com/title/tt0756683/

[Vipera]

Greit å være relgiøs da. Om 2000 år må man være inter-stellar-tachyon-beam-me-up-faster-than-light-speed-forsker for å forstå en brøkdel av relgionen vitenskap. Anbefaler deg forresten å se filmen The Man from Earth : )

 

http://imdb.com/title/tt0756683/

 

Nei da, da får vi alle implantert alt av kunskap ved fødselen...