Motstand fra kristen

[Sherra]

Nå har jeg havnet i klammeri. Jeg har skrevet ateistiske innlegg på et forum, og nå får jeg PM fra sjefen sjøl, som sier han har studert masse realfag og fortsatt er kristen. Her er klammeriet han har satt meg opp i:

 

Sherra:

Christianity is also unlikely because of all the wonders. A man walking on water? Water turning into vine? A woman getting a child without having sexual intercourse?...That's what I call unlikely.

 

Christian:

That would be why they are called maricles! I've seen peopled of of cancer throught prayer (yes yes I know the debates agains this, 1. the person never had cancer or 2. they where healed through medicine.) But I had a close friend who had cancer, she had less than a 1 % chance of living and myself and some other people prayed for her and the next time she went in the Dr told her that she was healed. The Dr was amazed! He had no idea of how she had been healed and all signes of the cancer was gone. Another example, I once prayed over a 5 or 6 year old girl whos eyes were crossed and had been since birth (I knew this girl, it was real). After praying over her her eyes uncrossed and she has been fine ever since. I myself have been healed of minor heath problems through prayer.

 

Sherra:

The universe is older than 13 billion years. All serious scientists agree upon that.

 

Christian:

You know all serious scienctists once agreed upon the fact that the earth was flat, but did that make it flat? (-:

 

Sherra:

What do you know about physics and science?

 

Christian:

Physics and science is my passion along with philosophy and being a JesusFreak! I've been studying physics and maths at university level.

 

Sherra:

Heard about cosmic microwave background?

 

Christian:

O yes! It acctually proves creationism! Here read this: http://www.answersingenesis.org/sear...%20 radiation

 

Sherra:

Heard about Dinosaurs?

 

Christian:

O most definatly! Did you know that the Bible acctually talks about dinosaurs in the book of Job?

 

Sherra:

Heard about Carbon 14-dating?

 

Christian:

Again, Yes! Carbon 14 dating makes up an extremly small percentege of the dating methods. Here is another good article: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs...bon_dating.asp

 

Sherra:

I am arrogant myself sometimes, but I would NEVER argue against scientific geniuses like Stephen Hawkins and Richard Dawkins just because I'm going to church now and then and hear another story there. That's crazy.

 

Christian:

Okay yes I will admit that I am arrogant at times but not in this situation. All I've done is rationally look at the facts and decided that it logically can not be the way SH and RD say it is. Even SH can't describe how the world was started. And besides, saying that just because SH and RD say its right, its right, it a fallicy. Its an appeal to faulty autority. Its just the same as saying well millions of people believe something so it must be right.

 

Sherra:

So Why didn't you share those "facts" in first place? Of course I'd like to smash those arguments into pieces. Bring'em on!

 

Christian:

Okay...heres a few:

 

1. Our Sun. http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v11/i2/sun.asp

 

2. Natral Selection on a large scale. According to Darwin, NS will delete anything from an organism that is not useful. First of all it deletes not adds. Now, of course, there are theses mutations but realistically speaking, how can you have so many mutations to get froma few amino acids to something as complex as a humaning being? Show me one "missing link" that is not a hoax or that is not build out of a three bones that they found in two different places.SHow me one organism that has undergone macro (not micro) evolution in the past 2000 years. Also, NS keeps only things that are useful to the organism. Key word here is something that is USEFUL. Lets take a look at a relativly simple organism, flagelm (haha excuse my spelling). It bascially has a mini moter to give it the ability to move around. Well that motor has several parts and if just one of those parts is missing it does not work. Well lets just say some how it has 2 or 3 of thses parts, it still will not work, and therefore, NS will eliminate it. Don't you see how that would not work? NS by definition can not work on a large scale.

 

3. How was the world created? As in what was the first cause? So some people say there was a "Big Bang," what cause it? What cause the world to be created? Show me one thing in this world that does not have a creator. Every design has a designer. Every creation has a creator, etc etc etc. WE can't logically say that the world we live in was created from nothing.

 

4. Where does morallity come from? A conscience? Intuition? Animal instint?

 

Sherra:

"What? Don't say you're a Christian without having read The Bible? You should really know more about what the holy book says than do I! If you'd read it, you would know about all the contradictions and bad moral of God. Read it!"

 

Christian:

I have read it. But there is a difference between reading and understanding. ITs a 2000 year old book for crying out loud. You have to understand where the author is coming from, his culture, who he's writing it to, and the orignal greek and hebrew text.

 

Sherra:

"Here are some ridiculous Bible verses to start with.:"

 

Deuteronomy 23:1 ESV No one whose testicles are crushed or whose male organ is cut off shall enter the assembly of the Lord.

 

Christian:

This is about the Jewsih Levitical Law for Preists to enter the Holy of Holies. The Preistly Order was a shadow of what was to come, aka Jesus Christ, the Perfect Lamb of God. Since Christs death, the old Levitical Law was done away with.

 

Sherra:

-Deuteronomy 25:11-12 NASB If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity.

 

Christian:

Old Levitical Law

 

Sherra:

Genesis 1:5-14 there are days, evenings, and mornings BEFORE the Sun is created .

 

Christian:

God is explained as Light so the Sun was not needed for light.

 

Sherra:

WHO YOU SHOULD KILL:

--Unruly or rebellious child. Deut 21:20-21

--Those who curse or hit their parents. Lev 20:9, Ex 21:15

--Worshipers of other gods. Deut 13:6-11

--psychics, witches. Lev 20:27, Deut 13:6-11, Ex 22:18.

 

Christian:

All old covanant.

 

Sherra:

--Those who do not believe in Jesus.

Luke 19:27. -

 

Christian:

PARABLE about Judgement Day. It is showing that you will either go to Heaven or Hell.

 

Sherra:

By the way, where are you from? Are your parents Christians?

 

Christian:

I'm from the USA and yes they are. I'm not going to lie, part of the reason I am a Christian is because of them. But thats not all, I've studied pretty much all of the mainstream religions. From Christianity, to Peganism, to Budism. And Christianity is the most logical and fact based religion. Plus I have person experince that I can not deny. I have been studying science at university level, so I also know more about that topic than you do. Stop pretending you know science better than me when you're still in high school.

 

Sherra:

And don't worry, what you wrote never offended me in any way. I find it very funny that people in 2007 can beliece all that crap. But sadly it's bad for the world

 

Christian:

Okay its bad for the world? Lets look at some stuff really quick. Lets just say that there is no God and we really are evolved from animals. Then we would just be animals right? There would be no after life (aka, no eternal consiquences). So then if we are just animals then morals shouldn't matter. Think about it. If we're just glorified monkeys then we can do whatever. There would be no right and wrong, not absolute morality, nothing to hold us in check. Animals kill eachother all the time, why can't we? Have sex whenever and with whomever you want. And who's to stop something like Plato's Utopia? People would be completely ruled by emotion and desire. Now how would this world be? We'd have so many deaths from murders diesese, AIDS, everything. HOw is this better than a world that is governed by Biblical morality. The Bible has the absolute morality that this world needs.

 

...

 

Hvordan kan jeg vinne debatten?

Endret 24. august 2007 av Sherra

[Lafs]

han skrev "say that there is no God and we really are evolved from animals. Then we would just be animals right? There would be no after life (aka, no eternal consiquences). So then if we are just animals then morals shouldn't matter. Think about it. If we're just glorified monkeys then we can do whatever".

 

Det er det værste sprøytet jeg har hørt noen gang, jeg syntes det var mye vissvass her, og ingenting av det gjør kirstendommen mer "riktig". At han har studert realfag og er kristen er fordi han enten:

 

1. vil skille seg ut

2. Er mindre begavet

3. lett tilbakestående

4 Lettlurt

5. Ikke lest nok realfag

6. Har masse kriste venner og/eller familie som trer det over ørene hans når han kommer hjem.

 

Ps: mener ikke dette som et personangrep, men det er min mening(som er den riktige meningen seff)

 

Edit:

PS: Nesten alt den kristne sa her var faktisk stort sett sprøyt

Endret 24. august 2007 av Lafs

[Skarstard]

Les litt på forumet, så finner du gode svar til hans dumme, om enn delvis velformulerte, påstander.

[Sherra]

Er vel ikke alle som studerer realfag som er lett tilbakestående. Skal prøve å svare han så godt jeg kan.

[Lafs]

Er vel ikke alle som studerer realfag som er lett tilbakestående. Skal prøve å svare han så godt jeg kan.

9349593[/snapback]

 

Nei, ikke alle, men kansje han

[Trynemjoel]

Haha, han virker som en real kreasjonist. Flere kritisismer av vitenskapen er det vel svar på hos Talkorigins.com som tar for seg flere argumenter som kreasjonister klamrer seg til.

 

Det siste innlegget av fyren viser jo at han er av oppfatningen Ken Miller trodde var drivkraften til disse folkene. De tror at uten religion så er det ikke noe hold i moral og at det derfor er anarki. De ignorer blankt rasjonell tankegang og utforming av grenser for samfunnets borgere gjennom f.eks. demokrati.

 

Don´t argue with idiots, they´ll drag you down to their level and beat you by experience.

[Leviath]

Noen billige poenger du kan benytte deg av:

 

You know all serious scienctists once agreed upon the fact that the earth was flat, but did that make it flat?

I en passasje i bibelen (må vel være et sted i nye testamente) blir Jesus tatt med på toppen av et høyt fjell for å kunne skue ut over hele verden. Man kan ikke se hele verden hvis verden er rund, ergo sier bibelen at verden ikke er rund.

 

Da vil han sikkert parere med "ITs a 2000 year old book for crying out loud. You have to understand where the author is coming from, his culture, who he's writing it to, and the orignal greek and hebrew text.". Da kan du jo spørre hvorfor ikke skapelsesberetningen må/bør ses i lys av alder/kultur/målgruppe etc.

 

WE can't logically say that the world we live in was created from nothing.

Nothing og en høyere spirituell makt er vel like ulogisk. Kreasjonister sier det er mer logisk med en skaper som befinner seg utenfor konseptet tid/rom/masse. Jeg ser ikke den logikken...

[Pricks]

You know all serious scienctists once agreed upon the fact that the earth was flat

Vrøvl. Det var kirken som sto for det.

 

O yes! It acctually proves creationism!

Vrøvl igjen.

 

Did you know that the Bible acctually talks about dinosaurs in the book of Job?

Ren løgn.

 

All I've done is rationally look at the facts and decided that it logically can not be the way SH and RD say it is.

Feil. Dette er hva han har gjort:

 

https://www.diskusjon.no/index.php?act=Atta...=post&id=170331

 

1. Our Sun. http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v11/i2/sun.asp

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CE/CE310.html

 

According to Darwin, NS will delete anything from an organism that is not useful.

Løgn. Og uansett om Darwin hadde sagt det så er det irrelevant, da dagens vitenskapsmenn ikke sier det. Stråmann, med andre ord.

 

Show me one "missing link" that is not a hoax or that is not build out of a three bones that they found in two different places.

Han er tydeligvis kunnskapsløs.

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC200.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils1

 

SHow me one organism that has undergone macro (not micro) evolution in the past 2000 years.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

 

Lets take a look at a relativly simple organism, flagelm (haha excuse my spelling). It bascially has a mini moter to give it the ability to move around. Well that motor has several parts and if just one of those parts is missing it does not work. Well lets just say some how it has 2 or 3 of thses parts, it still will not work, and therefore, NS will eliminate it. Don't you see how that would not work? NS by definition can not work on a large scale.

Dette er totalt feil. Han mangler totalt forståelse for det han skriver om. Selv om du fjerner en del av dette, så vil de andre delene fungere separat, med andre funksjoner.

 

How was the world created?

Han kan plukke opp en bok og lære seg det selv, kanskje?

 

As in what was the first cause?

Det var ingen.

 

Show me one thing in this world that does not have a creator.

Sirkelargumentasjon. Han går ut ifra at alt har en skaper, også det som ikke er skapt av levende vesener på jorden.

 

Every design has a designer. Every creation has a creator, etc etc etc.

Som sagt, sirkelargumentasjon. Han går ut ifra at det er designet og skapt.

 

Where does morallity come from?

Evolusjon. Det er en del av det å være et dyr som lever i grupper. Grupper med interne regler står sterkere enn grupper uten.

 

WE can't logically say that the world we live in was created from nothing.

Det var den heller ikke.

 

All old covanant.

Bortforklaring. Hvis det ikke gjelder, hvorfor er det med i Bibelen da?

 

And Christianity is the most logical and fact based religion.

Tull. Muslimer påstår det samme om sin religion.

 

Plus I have person experince that I can not deny.

Irrelevant. "Personlige opplevelser" er ubrukelige. Han kan komme tilbake når han kan gjenskape det for andre under kontrollerte omstendigheter.

 

Lets just say that there is no God and we really are evolved from animals. Then we would just be animals right? There would be no after life (aka, no eternal consiquences).

Appeal to emotion. Logical fallacy.

 

So then if we are just animals then morals shouldn't matter.

Feil. Mennesket som flokkdyr har utviklet det fordi det er positivt for vår overlevelsesevne.

 

If we're just glorified monkeys then we can do whatever.

Vi kan det, men vi har innebygde "funksjoner" som gjør at vi ikke gjør det. Dessuten læres vi opp fra vi er små til å passe inn i samfunnet.

 

There would be no right and wrong, not absolute morality,

Korrekt. Ingen absolutter.

 

nothing to hold us in check.

Her kan du sette inn nådestøtet. Det han sier er altså at den eneste grunnen til at han ikke klikker totalt er Gud. Ateister, derimot, er moralske individer som ikke klikker totalt fordi det er riktig å være snill og grei. De trenger ingen usynlig gubbe i himmelen for å fortelle dem at de ikke må plage andre. Det er skremmende at den eneste grunnen til at han oppfører seg skikkelig er at han frykter Guds vrede!

 

 

Animals kill eachother all the time, why can't we?

Vi gjør jo det. LOL liksom

 

Have sex whenever and with whomever you want.

Ja, hva med det?

 

And who's to stop something like Plato's Utopia? People would be completely ruled by emotion and desire. Now how would this world be?

Vi har slike samfunn. Religiøse samfunn. Men disse har en ulempe, da samfunn som styres av rasjonelle tanker har større fremgang.

 

We'd have so many deaths from murders diesese, AIDS, everything.

Feil. Det går an å bruke kondom.

 

HOw is this better than a world that is governed by Biblical morality.

"Dette" er et fantasifoster. Han tegner et fullstendig galt bilde og setter opp dette og Bibelen som de eneste mulighetene. Med dette viser han hvor hjernevasket han er.

 

The Bible has the absolute morality that this world needs.

Feil. Verden trenger ikke den onde dritten i Bibelen.

 

Hvordan kan jeg vinne debatten?

Det kan du ikke. Han er hjernevasket og lyver, ignorerer fakta, osv. Han vil fortsette å gjengi løgner fra kreasjonistnettstedene sine til du kreperer av kjedsomhet.

[Bamsemumsen]

Jeg klapper på ekte for dere, Sherra og Pricks. Dere er seriøst mine forbilder, og alt dere skriver tar jeg til meg og bruker som argumenter i KRL-timene mot de få kristne i klassen min.