Sjakk matt mot den kristne gud?

[Matias]

Gud flytter jo ikke engang sjakkbrikkene.

[Guero]

og jeg blir litt pinlig berørt på dine vegne siden du ikke evner å komme med et seriøst svar 

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Vanskelig å komme med fornuftige svar på vrangforestillinger.

 

Der. Hvis du synes de sidene du linket til var overbevisende nok til at du velger å tro på dem, skal du få lov til å gjøre det.

 

Imidlertid er det du som har bevisbyrden når du påstår at dette er magi og mirakler. Ekstraordinære påstander krever ekstraordinære bevis. Jeg har ingen plikt til å svare seriøst på useriøse påstander - er du misfornøyd med at jeg ikke er overbevist, er det du som har ansvar for å forsøke å overbevise meg.

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Virgen de guadalupe

 

Mexico

Our Lady of Guadalupe

Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe

 

 

Greatly astonished, the Franciscan bishop of Mexico, Fray Juan de Zumarraga, contemplates the fresh roses of Castile that sprinkle with colors the floor of his episcopal palace. Tears run down his cheeks as he recognizes the beautiful image that has just appeared on the rough cloth that Juan Diego has unfolded in his presence. It is Tuesday, December 12, 1531, scarcely 10 years after the conquest of Mexico, and the Mother of God has come to the defeated Indians to "show and give" all her "love and compassion, help and defense, because I am your merciful mother."

 

For four days the Virgin has told her wishes to Juan Diego, talking to him in Nahualtl, his own tongue. When she identified herself, Mary used the word "coatlallope," a compound noun made up of "coatl," that is, serpent, the preposition "a," and "llope," to crush; in other words, she identified herself as "the one who crushes the serpent." Others reconstruct the name as "Tlecuauhtlapcupeuh," which means: "The one who comes from the region of light as the Eagle of Fire." In any event, the Nahualtl word sounded to the Spanish friars like "Guadalupe," relating the Tepeyac apparition with the beloved title venerated by Spaniards in the basilica built by King Alfonso XI in 1340.

 

Spanish image of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Cáceres, SpainThe Spanish image of Guadalupe is an ancient wood carving dressed in rich brocade cloaks that give it the triangular shape much favored at the time. She is very different from the Tepeyac painting, not only because of her Iberian-Byzantine features, but also because she carries the Child Jesus in her left arm and holds a royal scepter in her right hand, displaying a gold crown on her head. The Guadalupe of Cáceres, whose origin, according to legend, is placed about the 6th century, was found on the shore of the Guadalupe River (hidden river in Arabic) in the Villuercas mountain range, around 1326, after the Moors were driven out of that area.

 

Four hundred years elapsed before western culture recognized with admiration that the image imprinted on the native cloth was truly a Mexica codex, a message from heaven loaded with symbols. Helen Behrens, a North American anthropologist, discovered in 1945 what the eyes of the Indians had "read" in the painting of the "Mother of the true God by whom one lives" in December 1531.

 

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe remained stamped on a coarse cloth made from maguey fibers. It was on the ayate used by the Indians to carry things and not on the tilma, which is usually of a finer cotton texture. The weft of the ayate is so simple and coarse that one can see through it easily, and the fiber of the maguey is such an unsuitable material that no painter would have chosen it to paint on.

 

The image of Our Lady of Guadalupe is a marvelous cultural synthesis, a masterpiece that presented the new faith in such a way that it was immediately understood and accepted by the Mexican Indians. It is impossible to describe the rich and complex symbolism contained on this painting-codex because every detail of color and of form carries a theological message.

 

The face imprinted in the ayate is that of a young mestizo girl; an ethnic anticipation, since at that time there were no mestizos of that age in Mexico. Mary thus assumes the sorrows of thousands of children, the first of a new race, which at that time were rejected both by the Indians and by the conquerors. The painting, which is preserved in the modern Basilica of Tepeyac, measures approximately 66 by 41 inches and the image of the Virgin takes up 56 inches. The Virgin is standing and her face leans delicately, somewhat reminiscent of the traditional Immaculates.

The blue star-sprinkled cloak is the "Tilma de Turquesa" (turquoise tilma) used by the nobles that denoted the rank and importance of the bearer. Sunrays completely surround the Virgin of Guadalupe as if to indicate that she is their dawn. This young girl is a few months pregnant, as implied by the black bow at her waist, the slight protuberance below it, and the increased intensity of the sunrays at the waist. Her foot rests on a black moon (symbol of evil to the Mexica) and the angel, who supports her with a severe gesture, has his eagle wings unfolded.

 

The Virgin of Guadalupe presented herself to her children as the "Mother of the Creator and Preserver of All the Universe," who comes to her people because she wishes to protect all of them, Indians and Spaniards, with the same motherly love. With the wonderful imprint on the ayate a new world was beginning, the dawn of the sixth sun that the Mexicans were awaiting.

 

For 116 years the picture of the Virgin of Guadalupe was exposed to the rigors of the weather, with no protection against dust, humidity, heat or candle smoke, and the continuous rubbing of thousands and thousands of objects that had been touched to the venerated image, in addition to the constant contact of the hands and kisses of an infinite number of pilgrims. It has been proven that the maguey fabric breaks down easily; cloth woven with this vegetable fiber does not last more than 20 years, yet Juan Diego's ayate has lasted over four centuries in perfect condition.

Pius X proclaimed Our Lady of Guadalupe "Patroness of all Latin America"; Pius XI of "all the Americas"; Pius XII called her "Empress of the Americas"; and John XXIII "The celestial missionary of the New World" and "the Mother of the Americas."

Sanctuary of Our Lady of Guadalupe built in 1709

 

Modern basiica and sanctuary of Our Lady of Guadalupe

 

 

Every year 20 million faithful approach the venerated picture to express their affection and veneration to their heavenly Mother. It is estimated that on her feast day, December 12, nearly 3 million people go to the Sanctuary of Tepeyac, whose round shape symbolizes the tent that sheltered the Ark of the Covenant in its march through the desert; inside, the lamps that hang from the ceiling are reminiscent of the cloud that led the people of God day by day, and the shining gold wall that supports the picture represents the column of fire and light that indicated the way during the night. In this great basilica John Paul II beatified the Indian Juan Diego on May 6, 1990, later canonizing him in July 2002.

 

There have been serious attempts against the picture and it has withstood corrosive acids and even a large bomb without suffering damage. Now a thick strong glass protects it inside the air-conditioned room, which is closed like a strong box. The faithful can look at the picture from a moving mat that slides in two directions so the devotees will not remain in ecstasy contemplating their beloved Virgin.

 

The marvels in connection with the Virgin of Guadalupe have interested today's scientists, who have been unable to determine neither the origin of the pigments that give color to the picture or how it was painted. The images reflected in the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe have been studied since 1929. At present, thanks to modern techniques, it has been possible to discover in both eyes groups of people and objects placed in accordance with the most precise optical laws, just as in the eyes of a live person. It is as if the "painter" of the picture had wanted to reproduce inside the eyes of the image the scene that these were seeing at the time.

 

Veneration of the Virgin of Guadalupe is rooted deep in the hearts of her people; she gave Juan Diego a delicate treatment of nobility, elevating prophetically the condition of all her people. Because of this she was the banner raised by Father Miguel Hidalgo to begin the revolution for Mexican Independence.

 

 

Scientific Studies on the Image of Our Lady of Guadalupe

 

As new techniques become available, scientists continue to study the image that for centuries has been held by the coarse cloak of a humble 16th century Indian. But the studies, rather than yield answers, have uncovered a number of amazing details.

 

The Cloth

 

The first thing that textiles experts note is how this cloak has stood up, for centuries, to dust, heat and humidity, without fraying or fading. It was only recently that the cloak has been protected under glass. The cloak is fashioned from the fiber of the Mexican ayate, which normally does not last more than 20 years. Replicas of the image painted on this same fabric have disintegrated within the first two decades. But the original image has remained unchanged for nearly 500 years.

 

The Image

 

The source of the image is also a mystery. No one has been able to determine what gives the image its colors, nor how it was made. The German Richard Kuhn, the 1938 Nobel Prize Laureate in Chemistry, studied the image and reportedly pronounced the color source "neither mineral, nor vegetable, nor animal."

 

Studies by NASA scientists using infra-red light show that the image is not coated with any preservatives, and that there are no sketches under the image, as often appear in paintings by masters such as Rubens or Tiziano. The image, then, was made directly on the cloth without any previous model. In addition, the image evidences no brushstrokes. None of the experts who have studied the image has been able to determnine the techique used to transfer the image unto the cloth.

 

The Pupils

 

In the 1950s and early 1960s, studies by renowned ophthalmologists including Dr. Torroela-Bueno, Dr. Rafael Torija-Lavoignet and Dr. Charles Wahlig, revealed images reflected in the pupils of the Virgin. In 1979, Dr. Philip Callahan took 40 frames of infra-red photographs of the image. He later concluded that the original image is unexplainable as a human work. Later that year, Dr. José Aste-Tonsmann, using sophisticated image processing techniques with digitized photographs of both eyes, announces the finding of at least four human figures apparently reflected in both eyes of the Virgin.

 

The images reflected in the eyes of the Virgin are: an Indian in the act of opening his cloak before a religious man; the face of a Franciscan priest, with a tear running down his cheek; a man with a hand to his chin, as if expressing admiration; another Indian, praying; several children and a few other Franciscan friars. In other words, all the people mentioned in the story of the apparition of the Virgin of Guadalupe, written down centuries ago, are discovered in modern times reflected in the eyes of the image of Our Lady.

 

It should be noted that it is humanly impossible, in such a tiny space, that even the most expert miniaturist should have painted all these images, which have only been discerned after studies using the most advanced technology on photographs magnified over two thousand fold. Yet they were evidently present at the time the image appeared on Juan Diego's cloak.

 

Jeg er ikke i stand til å overbevise deg om at Gud finnes, like lite som du er i stand til å overbevise meg om at Gud ikke finnes.

[anietsoj]

Dere som ikke tror, dere frykter ikke spiritisme dere da? Jeg er ganske sikker på at dere ikke hadde turt å utføre mye av det.

[Thlom]

http://www.csicop.org/sb/2002-06/guadalupe.html

 

Skal vi slå hverandre i hjel med kilder eller godtar du at Lady of Guadalupe bare er et maleri?

 

EDIT: Hvis noen ønsker å bli med så skal jeg gjerne gjøre noe spiritisme og dokumentere det hele

Endret 26. januar 2007 av olsen

[Snø]

Dere som ikke tror, dere frykter ikke spiritisme dere da? Jeg er ganske sikker på at dere ikke hadde turt å utføre mye av det.

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Man må tro for å frykte. Jeg tror ikke at det finnes ånder og er derfor heller ikke redd for spiritisme.

[anietsoj]

Nei, man må bare ha negative tanker i hodet for å frykte. Jeg TROR ikke motorsagmassakeren kommer å dreper meg når jeg er alene, men jeg kan frykte det!

Du mente kanskje religiøs tro, men det blir egentlig det samme. Hvorfor er folk redde etter å ha sett en skrekkfilm? Hadde ikke du vært redd etter å ha sett Exorsisten, selv om du ikke har religiøs tro?

 

Tør du gå på badet, slukke lyset, og se i speilet å si "sorte maria" 3 ganger? Hvis du gjør det, skal du glemme dette andre gangen du går på badet fra nå.

[Snø]

Nei, man må bare ha negative tanker i hodet for å frykte. Jeg TROR ikke motorsagmassakeren kommer å dreper meg når jeg er alene, men jeg kan frykte det! 

Du mente kanskje religiøs tro, men det blir egentlig det samme. Hvorfor er folk redde etter å ha sett en skrekkfilm? Hadde ikke du vært redd etter  å ha sett Exorsisten, selv om du ikke har religiøs tro?

 

Tør du gå på badet, slukke lyset, og se i speilet å si "sorte maria" 3 ganger? Hvis du gjør det, skal du glemme dette andre gangen du går på badet fra nå.

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Alle de visuelle effektene i en skrekkfilm gjør at vi blir redde, men denne følelsen er midlertidig. Jeg kan bli skremt av varulver, ånder, zombier etc. i en film, men følelsen av frykt forsvinner raskt når minnene av filmen kommer på avstand. Tror slike filmer som Exorsisten vil gjøre større inntrykk på de troende, fordi det styrker en egens overbevisning om at overnaturlige krefter finnes. For meg er det ren underholdning.

[anietsoj]

Men du innrømmer at du i en liten stund i ettertid frykter det du har sett!? Du motsa deg selv litt der.

 

Du svarte bare på noe av det jeg stilte spørsmål til!

[Snø]

Joda. Jeg føler frykt. Det tror jeg både troende og ikke-troende føler når de ser på skrekkfilm. For det er vel det vi snakker om? Jeg mener at de troende vil kanskje bli påvirket mer enn de ikke-troende, ikke at ikke-troende ikke føler frykt i det hele tatt. Men jeg kan ikke frykte noe over et lengre tidsrom på grunnlag av det jeg ser i en skrekkfilm.

 

Tenker du på det med Sorte Maria? Jeg har gjort det før. Men det beviste ingenting siden det ikke skjedde noe. En venn av meg var veldig imot dette fordi han er overbevist om at det finnes, og han følte virkelig frykt da jeg likevel insisterte på å gjøre det. Jeg gjorde det for gøy og var ikke redd for hva det kunne føre med seg.

[Latskap]

Det jeg er mest redd for er sånne eksorsisme filmer.. bare tanken på ren ondskap skremmer meg..

[kjetil02]

Jeg er ikke i stand til å overbevise deg om at Gud finnes, like lite som du er i stand til å overbevise meg om at Gud ikke finnes.

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Nei, spesielt ikke med en sånn tekst som den der. Jeg har ikke noen plan om å motbevise gud, det er helt unødvendig. Problemet er jo å bevise noe vi ikke har noe bevis for. (Det er faktisk ikke sirkelargumentasjon )

 

For øvrig synes jeg denne biten var interessant:

 

Studies by NASA scientists using infra-red light show that the image is not coated with any preservatives, and that there are no sketches under the image, as often appear in paintings by masters such as Rubens or Tiziano. The image, then, was made directly on the cloth without any previous model. In addition, the image evidences no brushstrokes. None of the experts who have studied the image has been able to determnine the techique used to transfer the image unto the cloth.

 

Den minner jo veldig om en annen tekst jeg har lest her på forumet (en av de første du kom med om dette "mirakelet"):

 

IF one approaches the cloth of the tunic the colors of the image dissapears. As though the image is suspended in air not directly on the fabric. NASA did the following experiment. They shown a laser beam on the side of the fabric and the laser beam neither touched the image nor the fabric of the tunic. The image is alive above the fabric and can only be seen as one distances oneself from the tunic.

 

Mitt forslag er at den første er en ganske mye bedre oversettelse enn den andre. Men noen spørsmål rinner meg i hu:

 

Hvorfor NASA? Har de mer peiling på mirakler enn andre?

 

Hva slags "scientists"? Pleddologer?

 

Hvorfor er ikke disse nevnt ved navn?

 

Hvis NASA, hvorfor ikke verdensberømmelse? Hvorfor må du argumentere for det på et diskusjonsforum?

[dnthalhuk]

Dere som ikke tror, dere frykter ikke spiritisme dere da? Jeg er ganske sikker på at dere ikke hadde turt å utføre mye av det.

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Eneste skumle med spiritisme er at man lurer seg selv til å se ting som ikke finnes.

[-simon-]

Man må tro for å frykte. Jeg tror ikke at det finnes ånder og er derfor heller ikke redd for spiritisme.

 

konflikten i midtøsten mellom Israel og *den andre parten* er en ganske tydelig åndelig kamp... Islam tillater ikke at land som de mener ER under Islam, kan komme under noe annet..de mener Israel ikke KAN eksistere, fordi dette *er* islamsk land. SÅ, de Islamske landene vil helt klart ha Israel VEKK, tilintetgjort.. HVorfor i hekken har de ikke klart det ennå, når du ser Israel som en liten prikk i et hav av araberland? Gud er med dette folket:)

[Matias]

Var det en spøk Simon? Håper det.

[Red Frostraven]

Man må tro for å frykte. Jeg tror ikke at det finnes ånder og er derfor heller ikke redd for spiritisme.

 

konflikten i midtøsten mellom Israel og *den andre parten* er en ganske tydelig åndelig kamp... Islam tillater ikke at land som de mener ER under Islam, kan komme under noe annet..de mener Israel ikke KAN eksistere, fordi dette *er* islamsk land. SÅ, de Islamske landene vil helt klart ha Israel VEKK, tilintetgjort.. HVorfor i hekken har de ikke klart det ennå, når du ser Israel som en liten prikk i et hav av araberland? Gud er med dette folket:)

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"One word: Nuclear Fucking Weapons, Ooookay?" -- Denis Leary

 

De har fått Abraham -- amerikanske tanks -- og stort sett alle våpen de har pekt på.

 

Motparten til Israel sitt største våpen, utenom TNT, er Rocket Propelled Grenades -- RPG -- som *ikke* er pansergjenomtrengende; nesten ubrukelig mot tanks.

 

Det vil si: Israel kan ikke bli rørt av en "hær" med slagstyrken til en hær fra første verdenskrig -- kun menn og granater -- og det er nettopp den motstanden de møter.

Og slakter.

[Matias]

Hvis gud er forkledd som de amerikanske presidentene er de kanskje "guds utvalgte folk"?

[kizzykazz]

Det vil si: Israel kan ikke bli rørt av en "hær" med slagstyrken til en hær fra første verdenskrig -- kun menn og granater -- og det er nettopp den motstanden de møter.

Og slakter.

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Når vi snakkar om slakting... Kan du vise til kjelder?

Visst Sverige hadde innvadert Norge eller tatt ein nordmann til fange eller drept nordmenn, ville du da ikkje angripe Sverige fordi dei kun har "menn med granater" og ikkje varmesøkande missilar? Har eg tolka det du sa riktig?

[Thlom]

Stopp midtøstendiskusjonen før det sklir ut

[Pricks]

Gud flytter jo ikke engang sjakkbrikkene.

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Et godt poeng som nok en gang setter den kristne gud i sjakk matt.

 

Hvorfor griper Gud inn og gjør gode ting for enkelte - svarer på bønn (påstås det), når man samtidig sier at grunnen til ondskap i verden er fri vilje, og Gud vil ikke gripe inn pga. det?

 

Kristendommen: Den mest selvmotsigende religionen i verden?

[toth]

Fri vilje og bønnhøring er da ikke motsetninger. Om man bruker sin frie vilje til å be Gud om noe, og han gir deg det, går ikke det på akkord med teorien om fri vilje.