Ye Olde Pub (The English Pub)

[jjkoggan]

There is a simple solution to that puzzle: I lived in ignorance.It wasn't until I was abroad for a couple of years that I was able to realize what a 'hellhole' America was, and how small a part it actually plays in the worldstage. It is a flailing child throwing a tantrum, in need of discipline, but it has no parents to administer that discipline, so it never learns. It is no longer a world power, but rather an arrogant bully which more and more people ignore.

In a true hellhole, no one can be ignorant to its existence. Those risking their lives to seek asylum in the west don't need to live in Europe to be aware of their hellholes back home

It is true, however that living abroad can give you a perspective difficult to obtain at home and change your view on many things.

Rare though, is the person who completely rejects his native land as a hellhole. Instead, a more mature, broader perspective usually emerges that is nuanced and less brutal in its judgement because one learns to reconcile the different perspectives and understand the background for the perspectives

Sad to see that you can only appreciate one side

[Kea]

I don't know about the rest of Norwegians, but even though I indulge in these stereotypic jokes from time to time, I am perfectly able to take on a realistic view of the US and say that there are a lot of intelligent Americans out there. Because there are. No doubt about it. It's just that Americans seems to have become, to Norwegians, the new Swedes. It's fun to poke fun and point out their mistakes, but that's all it is. Just harmless fun. Friendly banter.

 

Also, I have on many occasions thought that we ought to rename Americans to something more specific to the US, though I know that it is the correct term.

[jjkoggan]

I don't know about the rest of Norwegians, but even though I indulge in these stereotypic jokes from time to time, I am perfectly able to take on a realistic view of the US and say that there are a lot of intelligent Americans out there. Because there are. No doubt about it. It's just that Americans seems to have become, to Norwegians, the new Swedes. It's fun to poke fun and point out their mistakes, but that's all it is. Just harmless fun. Friendly banter.

 

Also, I have on many occasions thought that we ought to rename Americans to something more specific to the US, though I know that it is the correct term.

Well intentioned Friendly banter yes, but also reinforcement of generalizations that become more and more difficult to avoid associations later on unless challenged with serious thought or the actual reality of living here

 

Why would you rename us? It was actuallt the British who coined the term "americans", not Americans themselves, who saw themselves as citizens of each colony/state

[Kea]

I am sure that there are people who live in a bubble, thinking Europeans are perfect and that only the USA represents everything that's wrong with the world (I believe I have heard that phrase in several movies and TV shows, which shows that America is in on the joke as well), but hopefully, those are a minority. Maybe I'm being naive here, but I dare believe that most Norwegians don't truly think they're superior to you. I have never been to America, but even I know that in reality, those things we say about you are not true for the most part.

 

Well, America is a continent, and only a part of it refers to the country. Of course everyone knows that you mean the country when you say you're American, but in my ears it's still too general. USian, maybe?

[jjkoggan]

I am sure that there are people who live in a bubble, thinking Europeans are perfect and that only the USA represents everything that's wrong with the world (I believe I have heard that phrase in several movies and TV shows, which shows that America is in on the joke as well), but hopefully, those are a minority. Maybe I'm being naive here, but I dare believe that most Norwegians don't truly think they're superior to you. I have never been to America, but even I know that in reality, those things we say about you are not true for the most part.

Many criticisms are true, many come from Americans themselves, but most lack nuance and are very superficial. Are we stupid? Well yeah maybe, but stupid about what? Our 10th graders do as well as Norwegian 10th graders on average but our population and schools are heterogeneous. My daughters school would outperform most norwegian schools while nearby schools in poorer neighborhoods would fail miserably. Who is stupid and who americans are varies considerably more than in America and make statement that "Americans are stupid" quite ignorant.

 

If one were to say "Muslims are stupid", many norwegians would protest, criticizing the statement as over generalized ignorance whereas accusing Americans of the same would more likely be accepted as common knowledge. After all, just watch the americans on Jerry Springer for proof!

 

The usa is like the boss, making fun of the boss is rarely forbidden, he/she is powerful and pushes his/her underlings around, nobody feels sorry for the boss. Caricatures, distortions, exaggerations are accepted and sometimes stem from jealousy. The problem, of course is that the best way to deal with the boss is to truly understand him/her and caricatures don't help even if it can be therapeutic to belittle him/her because you are frustrated with him/her

 

As far as being "superior", I am not sure what that means, it's as superficial as saying americans are stupid. Superior to what and in what respect?

[Kea]

Superior in that they (we) think we're better than you. And by we, I don't only mean Norwegians, although they seem to like to point that out a lot. Thinking they're better in every aspect; more intelligent, healthier, more well-spoken, more knowledgeable, etc. Thinking that about oneself, I believe would make one feel superior to others. Especially while thinking the opposite about other people. Or in this case, countries.

[jjkoggan]

Superior in that they (we) think we're better than you. And by we, I don't only mean Norwegians, although they seem to like to point that out a lot. Thinking they're better in every aspect; more intelligent, healthier, more well-spoken, more knowledgeable, etc. Thinking that about oneself, I believe would make one feel superior to others. Especially while thinking the opposite about other people. Or in this case, countries.

I believe that virtually nobody believes that they are superior in every aspect about others, but some feel superior overall based on what they see as important traits. I also feel like norwegians would rarely assign cause for negative traits to genetic inferiority but primarily due to environment. Religion/brainwashing or to rovdyr kapitalisme is often cited as strong contributing factors to undesirable behaviour/inferior knowledge americans exhibit

 

To me many norwegians feel they have a superior political and economic system that creates high wages with little poverty and low crime not that they feel personally superior, though amerikanisering has led to many fat, stupid americans.

Secondly, norwegians can feel like they have a superior culture, deeply rooted in a ancient, common history and tradition compared to the shallow, materialistic american culture. Knut Hamsun expressed this sentiment well which still continues unabated today, it only varies in intensity

[Slimda]

One only needs to define the term "amerikanisering" to understand the norwegian relationship with the usa.

This term carries a negative connotation, but not because it's Americanization, but because it's Americanization. It's a negative word because it means we get a shift away from our culture/society to that specific culture/society. It's the same with Islaminization og ghettofication.

 

Now there aren't any other terms about other countries, but that just goes to show that the American Culture is so enormous and prevailing that we have our own term for it. I'm positive that if the British culture was as "big" and "imposing" as the American one, we'd call it "Britishization" or something like that.

 

Or to put it in gaming-terms. The US is currently close to a Culture victory in Civilization.

 

 

[Slimda]

To me many norwegians feel they have a superior political and economic system that creates high wages with little poverty and low crime not that they feel personally superior, though amerikanisering has led to many fat, stupid americans.

Considering that Norway has far higher standards of living that the US, feeling that Norwegians have a superior political and economic system isn't exactly unwarranted.

Secondly, norwegians can feel like they have a superior culture, deeply rooted in a ancient, common history and tradition compared to the shallow, materialistic american culture. Knut Hamsun expressed this sentiment well which still continues unabated today, it only varies in intensity

Most people I've met in other countries and in Norway are interested in other cultures, but still prefer their own. That's hardly a surprise though.

[jjkoggan]

 

One only needs to define the term "amerikanisering" to understand the norwegian relationship with the usa.

This term carries a negative connotation, but not because it's Americanization, but because it's Americanization. It's a negative word because it means we get a shift away from our culture/society to that specific culture/society. It's the same with Islaminization og ghettofication.

 

Now there aren't any other terms about other countries, but that just goes to show that the American Culture is so enormous and prevailing that we have our own term for it. I'm positive that if the British culture was as "big" and "imposing" as the American one, we'd call it "Britishization" or something like that.

 

 

I think the word you may be searching for is "anglicize",  i.e. to make English in form or character.  This is something that happened to many immigrants to the USA, their name was anglicized to make it pronounceable to americans.  This happened to some Norwegians.

 

The problem with your explanation is twofold.  

 

First- the complaints of a vulgar/shallow/materialistic culture existed long before the USA became a cultural superpower.  Nobody believed during Hamsun's time that america would export its culture. This means that the complaints are not just a reaction to cultural imperialism as you suggest, but a widely accepted disdain for what is perceived as american culture.

 

Second-americanization would not carry a negative connotation if it were perceived as a improvement to society.  There are many things we can learn from each other.  Your constitution was heavily influenced by the american constitution, along with many technological innovations that have made your lives easier.  Why is it that only negative influences are seen as americanizations?

[jjkoggan]

Considering that Norway has far higher standards of living that the US, feeling that Norwegians have a superior political and economic system isn't exactly unwarranted.

First-Norwegians do not have higher living standards than americans, the USA is #1 in household income per capita, according to the OECD. http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/topics/income/

 

Second- If the political and economic system of Norway were superior, then you would expect that norwegian immigrants would suffer a drop in living standard in the USA. Instead, Norwegian americans earn more than their norwegian slektninger,not only when looking at median income but also still achieving similar low poverty rates.

 

This is true for almost all immigrant groups, they do better when moving to the USA. What no nation has been able to do, hodebry is eliminate racism, nor achieve total assimilation. Norwegians almost always compare themselves to the USA as whole without awareness of the huge challenges that face a very multicultural nation. Every good scientist knows it is a bad idea to compare very large complex systems to small simple systems and draw any accurate conclusions. Would you expect that if you start inviting Greeks, Turks, Spanish, Mexicans, Indonesians, Iranians..... that you would get the same uniformly cohesive, productive society that exists today in norway? No, and the same political system likely would not achieve the same results. High levels of multiculturalism and high levels of income redistribution likely Will not function well. The Nordic model requires high levels of employment to survive and even in your great nation, immigrants struggle with employment.

Most people I've met in other countries and in Norway are interested in other cultures, but still prefer their own. That's hardly a surprise though.

Yes most people prefer their own culture, but some cultures are respected more than others. American culture is rarely respected, not just because it is different. Endret 13. september 2015 av jjkoggan