Ye Olde Pub (The English Pub)

[Anarkhos]

Isn't it illegal to make death threats in Norway? Either way, best not to respond to that kind of posts - lest their writers think the posts have credibility.

 

The distance between to different types of nature is not a measure of diversity, it is a measure of a 'gradient' of sorts.

 

I disagree, disparate climates and varied geology always produce greater diversity in terms of animal and plant life. An arctic climate has diversity, of course but having a tropical environment doubles the diversity. New Zealand has the entire range from arctic to tropical environments and everything in between, not just one or the other. Each has its own unique biological fauna and animal systems.

 

The distance between the two types of nature is still irrelevant - what matters to this topic is that they occur within the same country.

 

Now you are playing with mythical cards. No society is particularly tolerant if you look closely. No matter where you live, you will 'feel threatened by social convention'.

 

All societies have social conventions, but for some the social convention is to be creative and different while others encourage sameness. Some value the rights of the individual more than others. Scandinavian societies are generally accepted as cohesive societies which tend to think more collectively, which is why it has a very generous welfare system that punishes the wealthy so that the poor do not suffer. One only need read the jante law to see how it applies to scandinavian culture. Nobel prize economist Milton Friedman said it this way-

 

Though it is not as true now as it used to be with the influx of immigration, the Scandinavian countries have a very small, homogeneous population. That enables them to get away with a good deal they couldn’t otherwise get away with.

 

What works for Sweden wouldn’t work for France or Germany or Italy. In a small state, you can reach outside for many of your activities. In a homogeneous culture, they are willing to pay higher taxes in order to achieve commonly held goals. But “common goals” are much harder to come by in larger, more heterogeneous populations.

 

Societies where the convention is to be different? I am afraid that kind convention is going to have pretty severe limits - or there is not going to be much of a society left (provide me with a specific example of such a society, and we'll see!).

 

Pray tell, which 'commonly held goals' do Norwegian tax money fund that they could not in a less homogenous society?

 

It may be that Scandinavian countries are more homogeneous than countries on a larger scale, but people 'live in smaller scales', so the homogeneity of each individual town and city is what really matters.

Endret 25. mai 2011 av Anarkhos

[jjkoggan]

 

Societies where the convention is to be different? I am afraid that kind convention is going to have pretty severe limits - or there is not going to be much of a society left (provide me with a specific example of such a society, and we'll see!).

 

Pray tell, which 'commonly held goals' do Norwegian tax money fund that they could not in a less homogenous society?

 

It may be that Scandinavian countries are more homogeneous than countries on a larger scale, but people 'live in smaller scales', so the homogeneity of each individual town and city is what really matters.

 

There are societies that encourage creativity and societies that stress conformity. A good example is an observation that retailers in NYC note that happens frequently when a female japanese tourist comes and buys a dress. Retailers know to expect many other japanese women to request the same dress, even when they are part of the same group. It is reported that at social events japanese women love when other women are dressed just as they are. A similar situation in the USA would be met with disappointment if two women were dressed exactly the same at a big social event, since it detracts from being outstanding and unique. Creative societies reward those who strive to be unique and stand out, not defy jante law. American society has a long history of churning out new to the world products and technology because it rewards and accepts creative differences at levels that other nations do not with a rainbow of different people with very different perspectives. This is rewarded and encouraged by american corporations who seek actively to promote diversity. My boss is a indian-american immigrant, her boss is jewish american from NYC, her boss is chinese, his boss is hungarian-american immigrant and his boss is british.

 

I quoted Milton Friedman, nobel prize winner in economics, not myself with regards to the swedish economic model. What he was saying is that a homogeneous society can agree more easily on what its goals are, what the best methods are to pursue them and is more willing to sacrifice for each other than a heterogenous society that distrusts other groups and has different goals. Demonstration of this principle in Norway is the rise of the anti-immigration party FrP as immigrants arrive who are not as trusted and who are perceived to have different goals and also not conform to norwegian culture. If immigration increases it will become difficult to hold the nordic model together as it is already perceived by many to not work with immigrants. Some in this thread alone have threatened violence and immigration debate is the hottest topic in these fora as near as I can tell, even though immigration levels in Norway are very low compared to many other western nations.

 

I see imigration as mostly positive if managed properly as it has been a driving economic engine for the USA. On the other hand it violates jante law of sameness and I am not sure how Norway can keep the law if it continues.

[L4r5]

Rasistiske yttringer er ikke ønskelig på dette forumet. Jeg har derfor fjernet et par innlegg og påfølgende debatt.

Reaksjoner på moderering skjer på PM

 

Og, ja, moderatormeldinger er unntatt språkkravet i denne tråden, men jeg kan gjenta det på engelsk:

Racism is not tolerated in this forum. I've removed some posts.

Any reactions to this can be forwarderd per PM.

 

Lars

[Anarkhos]

Quite the pub conversation, eh!!

 

The Japanese anecdote is interesting, but not really decisive. It can of course vary from society to society where the conformity is expected (but while we're at it: if you'd turned up at a job interviews in old worn out clothing, you think this on average would be rewared for individuality?), and so the Japanese could find individuality elsewhere (provided that this stuff is actually true).

 

American society has a long history of churning out new to the world products and technology because it rewards and accepts creative differences at levels that other nations do not with a rainbow of different people with very different perspectives.

 

What makes the US as strong as it is, has multiple answers. Given the world being as it is, one obvious necessity is its sheer size. In terms of population, it is the third largest country in the world. By area, it has a similar ranking.

 

Compared to the US population of 310 million, the UK has 61 and France 64. Other countries of similar sizes have a history of being poorly run, such as India, Pakistan and Russia. Japan, on the other hand, which you accused of being conformist, has 126 million inhabitants - less than half of the US population, yet a nation of advanced technology.

 

My boss is a indian-american immigrant, her boss is jewish american from NYC, her boss is chinese, his boss is hungarian-american immigrant and his boss is british.

 

Yet are the aspirations of these people so terribly different? A point of origin is in itself largely irrelevant.

 

 

I quoted Milton Friedman, nobel prize winner in economics, not myself with regards to the swedish economic model. What he was saying is that a homogeneous society can agree more easily on what its goals are, what the best methods are to pursue them and is more willing to sacrifice for each other than a heterogenous society that distrusts other groups and has different goals. Demonstration of this principle in Norway is the rise of the anti-immigration party FrP as immigrants arrive who are not as trusted and who are perceived to have different goals and also not conform to norwegian culture.

 

The parallel to the immigration of Mexicans to the southern US is striking. No matter where in the US the Mexicans would migrate to, their culture would be different to the local one. Since the US culture as a whole is not all that homogeneous, the idea of a nation's culture being overrun might not be as strong, but ideas of local cultures being overrun will be strong - at local level.

 

I see imigration as mostly positive if managed properly as it has been a driving economic engine for the USA. On the other hand it violates jante law of sameness and I am not sure how Norway can keep the law if it continues.

 

The Jante law does not exist, of course, so I find it pretty silly that you keep referring to it. As I've been trying to explain, conformism always exists at a local level. It is this conformism that actually matters. That a nation is relatively homogeneous, puts limits on which conformity you would like to belong to, within the borders of the nation. It's cool to be a Mormon in Utah - not so much elswhere in the US.

Endret 27. mai 2011 av Anarkhos

[jjkoggan]

Quite the pub conversation, eh!!

 

What makes the US as strong as it is, has multiple answers. Given the world being as it is, one obvious necessity is its sheer size. In terms of population, it is the third largest country in the world. By area, it has a similar ranking.

 

Compared to the US population of 310 million, the UK has 61 and France 64. Other countries of similar sizes have a history of being poorly run, such as India, Pakistan and Russia. Japan, on the other hand, which you accused of being conformist, has 126 million inhabitants - less than half of the US population, yet a nation of advanced technology.

 

The japanese are great at implementing technology but not creating it. Europe and the USA have similar sized economies but 150% of its population. Realizing of course that it is a collection of varied nations, but the EU has made it easier for technology and businesses and workers to interact together. Still, the creative output is below USA standards. Where is the european version of Google, microsoft, Facebook, Twitter or silicon valley for that matter? One must remember the heart of silicon valley is immigrant based, a mixture of cultures and ideas.

 

 

 

 

The Jante law does not exist, of course, so I find it pretty silly that you keep referring to it. As I've been trying to explain, conformism always exists at a local level. It is this conformism that actually matters. That a nation is relatively homogeneous, puts limits on which conformity you would like to belong to, within the borders of the nation. It's cool to be a Mormon in Utah - not so much elswhere in the US.

 

No, americans expect and experience large differences in culture, even at the local level. Those that I work with and my daughter goes to school with are hindu, muslim, atheist, christian and buddhist. Her best friends are vietnamese american, chinese american and jewish american. My neighbors are from South Africa, India, and Mexico amongst the ultra religious to the atheist ones. We accept these differences as more normal- AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

 

That you think the jante law doesnt exist anymore is quite surprising and different than many academics who think it is always in play in scandinavia.

[Anarkhos]

The japanese are great at implementing technology but not creating it.

 

Examples?

 

Europe and the USA have similar sized economies but 150% of its population. Realizing of course that it is a collection of varied nations, but the EU has made it easier for technology and businesses and workers to interact together. Still, the creative output is below USA standards. Where is the european version of Google, microsoft, Facebook, Twitter or silicon valley for that matter? One must remember the heart of silicon valley is immigrant based, a mixture of cultures and ideas.

 

You cannot just compare the European Union the US like that, the EU is not a country. The smaller a country is, the harder for its companies to become big. They would have to relay more on expanding their buisness abroad - whereas a company from a large country such as the US can more comfortably focus on domestic markets without having lowered their ambitions too much. The present/past nature of the EU is not going to change such simple facts to any large extent.

 

While creating lists of companies is tiresome, we do in Europe have such companies as Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Nokia, Ericsson (now bought by Sony), Siemens - and the list goes on.

 

 

The Jante law does not exist, of course, so I find it pretty silly that you keep referring to it. As I've been trying to explain, conformism always exists at a local level. It is this conformism that actually matters. That a nation is relatively homogeneous, puts limits on which conformity you would like to belong to, within the borders of the nation. It's cool to be a Mormon in Utah - not so much elswhere in the US.

 

No, americans expect and experience large differences in culture, even at the local level. Those that I work with and my daughter goes to school with are hindu, muslim, atheist, christian and buddhist. Her best friends are vietnamese american, chinese american and jewish american. My neighbors are from South Africa, India, and Mexico amongst the ultra religious to the atheist ones. We accept these differences as more normal- AT THE LOCAL LEVEL.

 

Perhaps this is true for many places, but what you are staking out is a landscape dominated by often well-defined groups, with conformity attached. If you are born within one of those groups, then surely you're expected to follow a set of norms. Otherwise, these groups would not be capable of sustaining themselves (there's going to be little transfer between them) - they'd get depleted, and we're back to a culturally homogeneous society.

 

That you think the jante law doesnt exist anymore is quite surprising and different than many academics who think it is always in play in scandinavia.

 

The Jante Law is an invention by the Danish-Norweigna author Aksel Sandemose, so it has of course never existed. Applying this fictional law to reality is highly speculative.

[jjkoggan]

 

Examples?

 

Explores the cultural differences between Japan and the USA as they influence in the practice of creativity. Western logic reflects its Cartesian heritage of a clear, linear path of reasoning or the “scientific method”. The western approach to creativity is innovation through sponteneous originality. The Japanese approach, by contrast, is through the adaptive process. Implementing the innovation for effective production and marketing is their greatest strength. Japanese value the consensual more than differences. Proposes that US-Japanese partnerships would be the merging of opposites, the perfect complement of two diameterically opposite ways of creative thinking. If these partnerships are properly conceived and implemented, a highly efficient combine would result

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=855336&show=pdf

 

 

 

 

You cannot just compare the European Union the US like that, the EU is not a country. The smaller a country is, the harder for its companies to become big. They would have to relay more on expanding their buisness abroad - whereas a company from a large country such as the US can more comfortably focus on domestic markets without having lowered their ambitions too much. The present/past nature of the EU is not going to change such simple facts to any large extent.

 

While creating lists of companies is tiresome, we do in Europe have such companies as Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Nokia, Ericsson (now bought by Sony), Siemens - and the list goes on.

I never said the EU was a single nation, but rather a collection of disparate nations, although better able to cooperate in a economic sense, precisely to more easily create larger more international trade. A direct comparison to the USA is of course invalid but not totally, since the internet allows small creative startups like Google etc.. to grow without a large infrastructure. Below are Fast Company's top ten most innovative companies in the world. Find any eurozoners's in the top ten?

 

http://www.fastcompany.com/most-innovative-companies/2011/

 

 

 

 

 

Perhaps this is true for many places, but what you are staking out is a landscape dominated by often well-defined groups, with conformity attached. If you are born within one of those groups, then surely you're expected to follow a set of norms. Otherwise, these groups would not be capable of sustaining themselves (there's going to be little transfer between them) - they'd get depleted, and we're back to a culturally homogeneous society.

 

There is plenty of transfer between cultures, especially multi-ethnic families, and it is in constant flux because immigration is a never-ending aspect of american history. The other aspect is the expectation that each child find their unique place in the world with wider limits than less individualistic societies. Religious and oddball cults, for example are generally not popular, but accepted as part of living in a heterogeneous society and more importantly their right as american. These groups are looked at in Norway with much more disdain. The other aspect of american culture is that ther is almost an expecation that it will adapt and change and not cling on to centuries old traditions as in much old european or asian cultures.

 

The Jante Law is an invention by the Danish-Norweigna author Aksel Sandemose, so it has of course never existed. Applying this fictional law to reality is highly speculative.

It was never a law but rather a social code still prevalent in Norwegian society that stresses conformity. Here is a link to how it expresses itself in Norway-

 

 

Pressures toward social conformity and strict sanctions on nonconformity are present in all societies, but perhaps more so in the sparsely populated, geographically isolated and relatively homogenous communities of Norway. We would suggest that the highly complex and abstracted concept of Janteloven is a helpful label for a set of values widely shared in Norway. This concept is valuable precisely because of the observed conformity of many Norwegians to the long list of behavioral norms listed above, and the widely shared willingness of Norwegian intellectuals and others to use the concept of Janteloven to describe the behaviors underlying these widely shared norms. We would suggest, further, that equally complex abstractions might be used to describe values widely shared in similarly small and cohesive societies -- always realizing that the abstraction is a limited descriptor of the probable attitudes and values of individual members of the society.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6405/is_n4_v50/ai_n28632549/pg_6/?tag=mantle_skin;content

[Anarkhos]

 

Examples?

 

Explores the cultural differences between Japan and the USA as they influence in the practice of creativity. Western logic reflects its Cartesian heritage of a clear, linear path of reasoning or the “scientific method”. The western approach to creativity is innovation through sponteneous originality. The Japanese approach, by contrast, is through the adaptive process. Implementing the innovation for effective production and marketing is their greatest strength. Japanese value the consensual more than differences. Proposes that US-Japanese partnerships would be the merging of opposites, the perfect complement of two diameterically opposite ways of creative thinking. If these partnerships are properly conceived and implemented, a highly efficient combine would result

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=855336&show=pdf

 

 

That's not much of an example.. The japanese do create new techonology, such as their uselesss robots.

 

 

 

You cannot just compare the European Union the US like that, the EU is not a country. The smaller a country is, the harder for its companies to become big. They would have to relay more on expanding their buisness abroad - whereas a company from a large country such as the US can more comfortably focus on domestic markets without having lowered their ambitions too much. The present/past nature of the EU is not going to change such simple facts to any large extent.

 

While creating lists of companies is tiresome, we do in Europe have such companies as Audi, Mercedes-Benz, Nokia, Ericsson (now bought by Sony), Siemens - and the list goes on.

I never said the EU was a single nation, but rather a collection of disparate nations, although better able to cooperate in a economic sense, precisely to more easily create larger more international trade. A direct comparison to the USA is of course invalid but not totally, since the internet allows small creative startups like Google etc.. to grow without a large infrastructure. Below are Fast Company's top ten most innovative companies in the world. Find any eurozoners's in the top ten?

 

http://www.fastcompany.com/most-innovative-companies/2011/

 

Created by a US magazine.. No, there are no European equivalents Twitter, no European equivalents Facebook. Not that there is much room for competition on such site anyway, as they would not be so social if people went to different websites.

 

What do we have in Europe, though? Let's see: in Norway, we companies like Opera Software, creator of the Opera web browser - and there is Funcom. In Sweden, you'll find the creators of the popular Battlefield series. The list goes on.

 

While companies like Google may not need much infrastructure to get somewhere, national borders still matters for companies relying on the internet. Physical contacts will have a large inpact on which softwares and internet sites the indiviual chooses. It should therefore be easier for a internet related company to grow big in the US than in a smaller country.

 

 

Perhaps this is true for many places, but what you are staking out is a landscape dominated by often well-defined groups, with conformity attached. If you are born within one of those groups, then surely you're expected to follow a set of norms. Otherwise, these groups would not be capable of sustaining themselves (there's going to be little transfer between them) - they'd get depleted, and we're back to a culturally homogeneous society.

 

There is plenty of transfer between cultures, especially multi-ethnic families, and it is in constant flux because immigration is a never-ending aspect of american history. The other aspect is the expectation that each child find their unique place in the world with wider limits than less individualistic societies. Religious and oddball cults, for example are generally not popular, but accepted as part of living in a heterogeneous society and more importantly their right as american. These groups are looked at in Norway with much more disdain. The other aspect of american culture is that ther is almost an expecation that it will adapt and change and not cling on to centuries old traditions as in much old european or asian cultures.

 

 

There cannot be many century old traditions still alive in Norway today. The latest independent nation of Norway is 106 years old, considerably younger than the US (I'd say that this number matters).

 

If this transfer that you speak of is too big, then there will be a homogeneous society in the end - it is the way societies work. Larger groups absorb the smaller ones.

 

 

The Jante Law is an invention by the Danish-Norweigna author Aksel Sandemose, so it has of course never existed. Applying this fictional law to reality is highly speculative.

It was never a law but rather a social code still prevalent in Norwegian society that stresses conformity. Here is a link to how it expresses itself in Norway-

 

 

Pressures toward social conformity and strict sanctions on nonconformity are present in all societies, but perhaps more so in the sparsely populated, geographically isolated and relatively homogenous communities of Norway. We would suggest that the highly complex and abstracted concept of Janteloven is a helpful label for a set of values widely shared in Norway. This concept is valuable precisely because of the observed conformity of many Norwegians to the long list of behavioral norms listed above, and the widely shared willingness of Norwegian intellectuals and others to use the concept of Janteloven to describe the behaviors underlying these widely shared norms. We would suggest, further, that equally complex abstractions might be used to describe values widely shared in similarly small and cohesive societies -- always realizing that the abstraction is a limited descriptor of the probable attitudes and values of individual members of the society.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb6405/is_n4_v50/ai_n28632549/pg_6/?tag=mantle_skin;content

 

Statements in that article are at odds with reality. The article gives the reader the impression of a Norwegian society that has been without classes - and this is terribly wrong. Social classes have existed both in the cities as well as in the rural communities (Oslo, for instance, has traditionally been divided into a wealthy western portion and not so wealthy eastern side. Wikipedia has a lot on this topic). There have always been people ranked above others in the Norwegian society. The mere fact that Norway is still (sadly) a monarchy largely disproves the notion of the Jante Law.

 

Norwegians are encouraged to become somebody important, as in any other culture. The human nature is to aim high and to be ambitious.

 

In short: that article is largely BS.

Endret 2. juni 2011 av Anarkhos

[Getingar]

Jante law is bullshit.

Look at sannfinländarna, Dansk folkeparti, FrP etc.

[jjkoggan]

 

That's not much of an example.. The japanese do create new techonology, such as their uselesss robots.

 

They do, but the article shows that their innovation tends to be more adaptive and incremental than spontaneous and game-changing.

 

 

 

Created by a US magazine.. No, there are no European equivalents Twitter, no European equivalents Facebook. Not that there is much room for competition on such site anyway, as they would not be so social if people went to different websites.

Russia has a facebook equivalent,but then that is not hugely innovative since it is an old idea in the cyberworld.

 

What do we have in Europe, though? Let's see: in Norway, we companies like Opera Software, creator of the Opera web browser - and there is Funcom. In Sweden, you'll find the creators of the popular Battlefield series. The list goes on.

Yes, some very good products, just not that earth shakingly innovative, though measuring creativity is fairly subjective.

 

While companies like Google may not need much infrastructure to get somewhere, national borders still matters for companies relying on the internet. Physical contacts will have a large inpact on which softwares and internet sites the indiviual chooses. It should therefore be easier for a internet related company to grow big in the US than in a smaller country

 

Perhaps a bit, though Google was launched in a garage with no sales or marketing whatsoever. It could have happened in a garage in Norway just as well, it spread like a virus because a few geeks tried and told their friends who told their friends... It crossed international borders just as fast, with just a few employees.

 

 

 

There cannot be many century old traditions still alive in Norway today. The latest independent nation of Norway is 106 years old, considerably younger than the US (I'd say that this number matters).

You are trying to tell me that geitost, bløtkake, lutefisk, seafaring and whaling, bunads and skiing are only 106 years old?

 

If this transfer that you speak of is too big, then there will be a homogeneous society in the end - it is the way societies work. Larger groups absorb the smaller ones.

If you keep adding new flavors to the stew, it keeps tasting different.

 

Statements in that article are at odds with reality. The article gives the reader the impression of a Norwegian society that has been without classes - and this is terribly wrong. Social classes have existed both in the cities as well as in the rural communities (Oslo, for instance, has traditionally been divided into a wealthy western portion and not so wealthy eastern side. Wikipedia has a lot on this topic).

 

Your wikipedia article explains that compared to other european cities the class divisions in Oslo are much lower. I remember a neighbor when I lived in Norway was wealthy and lived on top of a large hill in a big house. Clearly he was of a different class than the middle class people below, but what was talked about most of all was the fact that it was a giant house and he had 3 CARS!!!, not that he was wealthy. It was the display of wealth that mattered, not the fact that he was wealthy Clearly Jante Law was in play in my neighborhood at the time.

 

The paper from the professor from Baylor University is not so much saying that class distinctions don't exist but that there is an attempt to minimize or deny the display of classism and that compared to the British class system, norwegians are not used to such clear delineations that are ingrained in british culture. This is true also in american culture compared to british culture, class distinctions are not as clear, even though there is great inequality in american culture. One's accent or address or name or personal style doesn't always give away their class as clearly as it has existed in british society.

 

In any event, denying that modesty and pressure to not stand out are not prevalent (not everywhere, not everyone but still common) in norwegian culture is a bit odd. Professor Tornstam actually sought to quantify it in his paper "From Global Solidarity to Individualism", noting that it has gone down over time, but still exists.

 

www.soc.uu.se/Download.aspx?id=IT9D8rbvBJY%3D

 

 

There have always been people ranked above others in the Norwegian society. The mere fact that Norway is still (sadly) a monarchy largely disproves the notion of the Jante Law.

Yes, but those that have stood out or have rank do themselves a favor when they attempt to still show that they are still an everyman. You don't know how many times I have been told the story of King Olav riding the train to Holmenkollen with the commoners. Were queen Elizabeth to ride public transport during the same period it would likely be called inappropriate, not celebrated.

 

 

Norwegians are encouraged to become somebody important, as in any other culture. The human nature is to aim high and to be ambitious.

 

Yes, but be modest, don't boast and don't flaunt your wealth. Jackie Kennedy was hugely revered in norwegian circles until she lived the extravagant luxurious life.

[Bonna86]

Got a B on my English Pragmatics home exam. I'm proud of that seeing it took a lot of effort and time.

[jjkoggan]

Got a B on my English Pragmatics home exam. I'm proud of that seeing it took a lot of effort and time.

 

 

Do you have a green light or a red light?

[Bonna86]

Do you have a green light or a red light?

 

Uhm, green?

[jjkoggan]

Do you have a green light or a red light?

 

Uhm, green?

Ambiguous question?

 

Flying planes can be dangerous.

 

In American vernacular: he headed for home after a grand slam.

 

Any other good ones from ur class ?

[Bonna86]

Ambiguous question?

 

Flying planes can be dangerous.

 

In American vernacular: he headed for home after a grand slam.

 

Any other good ones from ur class ?

 

Aha! :!:

 

From my exam:

UNDER PENALTY OF LAW: DO NOT REMOVE TAG

 

compared to

 

UNDER PENALTY OF LAW THIS TAG NOT TO BE REMOVED EXCEPT BY THE CONSUMER.

 

Endret 10. juni 2011 av yvonne2

[Anarkhos]

There cannot be many century old traditions still alive in Norway today. The latest independent nation of Norway is 106 years old, considerably younger than the US (I'd say that this number matters).

You are trying to tell me that geitost, bløtkake, lutefisk, seafaring and whaling, bunads and skiing are only 106 years old?

 

The traditions that I had in mind was not lutefisk or similar cuisine, more like things that have to do with society in a bigger picture. Society is constantly changing.

 

Statements in that article are at odds with reality. The article gives the reader the impression of a Norwegian society that has been without classes - and this is terribly wrong. Social classes have existed both in the cities as well as in the rural communities (Oslo, for instance, has traditionally been divided into a wealthy western portion and not so wealthy eastern side. Wikipedia has a lot on this topic).

 

Your wikipedia article explains that compared to other european cities the class divisions in Oslo are much lower.

 

Yet it clearly mattered, which is the relevant bit.

 

I remember a neighbor when I lived in Norway was wealthy and lived on top of a large hill in a big house. Clearly he was of a different class than the middle class people below, but what was talked about most of all was the fact that it was a giant house and he had 3 CARS!!!, not that he was wealthy. It was the display of wealth that mattered, not the fact that he was wealthy Clearly Jante Law was in play in my neighborhood at the time.

 

I guess it was not common with three cars in that area, then.. You could also question the necessity of it, perhaps it was considered excessive. Not that it displayed wealth, but recklessness. There are many ways to explain the behaviour. I'll return to this in my last paragraph.

 

The paper from the professor from Baylor University is not so much saying that class distinctions don't exist but that there is an attempt to minimize or deny the display of classism and that compared to the British class system, norwegians are not used to such clear delineations that are ingrained in british culture. This is true also in american culture compared to british culture, class distinctions are not as clear, even though there is great inequality in american culture. One's accent or address or name or personal style doesn't always give away their class as clearly as it has existed in british society.

 

In any event, denying that modesty and pressure to not stand out are not prevalent (not everywhere, not everyone but still common) in norwegian culture is a bit odd. Professor Tornstam actually sought to quantify it in his paper "From Global Solidarity to Individualism", noting that it has gone down over time, but still exists.

 

www.soc.uu.se/Download.aspx?id=IT9D8rbvBJY%3D

 

You'll find that in most of the larger Norwegian cities, you can/could tell whether someone came from the upper class based on how of much of the vocabulary and grammar of the local dialect they had replaced with Danish/Danish-inspired equivalents. That way, they could distance themselves from people of lower social classes.

 

There have always been people ranked above others in the Norwegian society. The mere fact that Norway is still (sadly) a monarchy largely disproves the notion of the Jante Law.

Yes, but those that have stood out or have rank do themselves a favor when they attempt to still show that they are still an everyman. You don't know how many times I have been told the story of King Olav riding the train to Holmenkollen with the commoners. Were queen Elizabeth to ride public transport during the same period it would likely be called inappropriate, not celebrated.

 

It was 'celebrated' because he was not an everyman, obviously. One is still supposed to titulate the royals with silly names.

 

Norwegians are encouraged to become somebody important, as in any other culture. The human nature is to aim high and to be ambitious.

 

Yes, but be modest, don't boast and don't flaunt your wealth. Jackie Kennedy was hugely revered in norwegian circles until she lived the extravagant luxurious life.

 

It could also be linked to 'spartanity'. When a U.S. politician is caught with pants down in the wrong place, are the sanctions he receieve due to the Jante Law? Or is it because he is breaking social conventions?

 

In a capitalist country like the U.S., wealth could be seen as a sign of success. One could thus expect the attitude towards flaunting of wealth to be of a different.

 

People are allowed to flaunt their success in Scandinavia, it just that wealth is not linked with success in the same manner as in the U.S. If a Norwegian wins an international tournament, he can get a hero's treatment. He is someone, and he can show it.

Endret 12. juni 2011 av Anarkhos

[jjkoggan]

The traditions that I had in mind was not lutefisk or similar cuisine, more like things that have to do with society in a bigger picture. Society is constantly changing.

 

Yes, culture changes but it is an evolution based on the past, not a discrete past a century ago. Some core values and customs hav e lasted much longer than 1814.

 

Yet it clearly mattered, which is the relevant bit.

 

The point was not whether class differences exist but that they are minimized and discouraged.

 

I guess it was not common with three cars in that area, then.. You could also question the necessity of it, perhaps it was considered excessive. Not that it displayed wealth, but recklessness. There are many ways to explain the behaviour. I'll return to this in my last paragraph.

 

What is reckless about owning 3 cars?

 

You'll find that in most of the larger Norwegian cities, you can/could tell whether someone came from the upper class based on how of much of the vocabulary and grammar of the local dialect they had replaced with Danish/Danish-inspired equivalents. That way, they could distance themselves from people of lower social classes.

But egalitarianism discourages differentiation.

 

[it was 'celebrated' because he was not an everyman, obviously. One is still supposed to titulate the royals with silly names.

 

Exactly, he endeared himself to the norwegian sense of egalitarianism by pretending he was an everyman. It was celebrated in Norway(Don't pretend you are better than anyone else) and would have been considered undignified in class oriented Britain.

 

It could also be linked to 'spartanity'. When a U.S. politician is caught with pants down in the wrong place, are the sanctions he receieve due to the Jante Law? Or is it because he is breaking social conventions?

Adultery is outside the social norm of being loyal to your spouse and flaunting your wealth or sucess is outside the social norm of modesty in norwegian culture.

 

People are allowed to flaunt their success in Scandinavia, it just that wealth is not linked with success in the same manner as in the U.S. If a Norwegian wins an international tournament, he can get a hero's treatment. He is someone, and he can show it.

 

Norway's sports president disagrees with your assessment. She claims talented norwegian atDet er ingen tvil om at vi har en stor utfordring på dette området, sier Tove Paule til Aftenbladet. Presidenten i Norges Idrettsforbund har vært trener og leder i en årrekke og vært vitne til hva som kan skje på grunn av janteloven.

 

 

 

- Det er ingen tvil om at du kan risikere å bli mobbet dersom du skiller deg ut og er for god. Det har jeg selv sett, sier Paule.

 

- Hvis noen blir veldig gode i en gruppe, blir det raskt misunnelse som kan gi svært uheldige utslag. Vi er oppmerksomme og skal blant annet samarbeide med særforbundene om problemet, sier Paule, som minner om at norsk idrett er en stor og tunge masse som det tar tid å snu.

 

- Der kommer vi til å diskutere holdninger og verdier hvor janteloven er ett eksempel. Vi kommer til å se på ulike løsninger og det kan hende at saken blir diskutert på både styre- og ledermøtet i Stavanger, sier Paule, som ikke vil spekulere i hva som blir resultatet av møtene.

 

-

- Motsatt i USA: Verdens mest meritterte terrengsyklist, Gunn-Rita Dahle Flesjå, føler også at janteloven fortsatt står veldig sterkt i Norge.

 

- Jeg merker særlig forskjell når jeg er i USA hvor de dyrker fram de beste og bruker dem som forbilder. I Norge tror jeg det kan være hemmende for talentutviklingen at de beste ofte dempes i stedet for å trekkes fram, sier Gunn-Rita, som selv merker janteloven.

 

- Særlig i sesonger hvor jeg har vunnet mye, har folk forsøkt å dra meg ned, for eksempel ved å kritisere nivået. Faktisk føler jeg janteloven står enda sterkere blant jenter enn blant gutter, sier Gunn-Rita, som uansett er topp motivert til å komme tilbake for fullt i toppidretten etter fødselenhletes are discouraged from being better than other's due to janteloven.

http://www.aftenbladet.no/sport/Paule-vil-janteloven-til-livs-2037832.html

[Anarkhos]

When I grew up, I saw no signs of the "Jante Law" - and I still do not. Some people are hellbent on applying this concept on all sorts of topics.

 

Yet it clearly mattered, which is the relevant bit.

 

The point was not whether class differences exist but that they are minimized and discouraged.

 

No, they were most certainly not. They might be today, but that is a different story.

 

I guess it was not common with three cars in that area, then.. You could also question the necessity of it, perhaps it was considered excessive. Not that it displayed wealth, but recklessness. There are many ways to explain the behaviour. I'll return to this in my last paragraph.

 

What is reckless about owning 3 cars?

 

Redundancy.

 

[it was 'celebrated' because he was not an everyman, obviously. One is still supposed to titulate the royals with silly names.

 

Exactly, he endeared himself to the norwegian sense of egalitarianism by pretending he was an everyman. It was celebrated in Norway(Don't pretend you are better than anyone else) and would have been considered undignified in class oriented Britain.

 

If it was expected that he was an everyman, there would be no king. You can't have it both ways. There did not have to be a monarchy, remember. A Norwegian republic was being considered

 

People are allowed to flaunt their success in Scandinavia, it just that wealth is not linked with success in the same manner as in the U.S. If a Norwegian wins an international tournament, he can get a hero's treatment. He is someone, and he can show it.

 

Norway's sports president disagrees with your assessment. She claims talented norwegian at[...]

 

People claim a lot of things, I claim the opposite, cf. my first paragraph.

[jjkoggan]

When I grew up, I saw no signs of the "Jante Law" - and I still do not. Some people are hellbent on applying this concept on all sorts of topics.

 

 

It may be a matter of interpretation. My interpretation is not that social rank doesn't exist or is even undesired, only that there is subtle peer pressure to be modest about your accomplishments and your status.

 

This is confirmed by multiple academic studies such as Tornstam(see link) and anecdotal reference from many norwegian officials and observers of norwegian culture. It is included in the corporate website where I work for those who travel to Norway so that they understand norwegian business culture.

 

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:eZNHIlEYZVMJ:www.soc.uu.se/Download.aspx%3Fid%3DIT9D8rbvBJY%253D+1982,+no+less+than.+61+percent+of+the+women+supported+the+Jante+Law&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShBmvmxhCaJ6XqixW_KENclagZ7Y-S8QelUzrFp0yzVqRSsPX1eQR2Q7lF6FemlgYrHiVI--yNq2ywfgs0dhKK0WTyjOO_XXo2gx2xWpm6zRKEkuQfBpDB_jGZCqU8Sa-ufgh3t&sig=AHIEtbRtk1O3qTb0hdbSxuNDGne-ctz22w

 

All of these could be wrong, of course but it is not something antiquated that only a few idiots believe about norwegian culture, it is widely held as a cultural phenomena.

 

I guess it was not common with three cars in that area, then.. You could also question the necessity of it, perhaps it was considered excessive. Not that it displayed wealth, but recklessness. There are many ways to explain the behaviour. I'll return to this in my last paragraph.

 

What is reckless about owning 3 cars?

 

Redundancy.

 

The only definitions of recklessness that I know of imply behavior that is potentially dangerous. What danger owning 3 cars is or what you are trying to say is a mystery to me.

 

 

If it was expected that he was an everyman, there would be no king. You can't have it both ways. There did not have to be a monarchy, remember. A Norwegian republic was being considered

 

Having a king fit the scandinavian pattern, clearly conforming to your neighbors. A republic would have fit outside the norm. As I also said, it is not about lack of social rank or achievement but how that rank or achievement is presented. King Olav clearly displayed humility and modesty even though he has high social rank. In other nations without a sense of egalitarianism, this action would have been considered improper.

 

People claim a lot of things, I claim the opposite, cf. my first paragraph.

 

Yes they do, but some of these claims are backed up by sociological research.

 

In any event I think the horse is rather dead and we stand polar opposites on this subject. I have enjoyed the debate though and am impressed with your english skills. I suspect residency in some english speaking environment?

 

Personally I regret not living longer in Norway to develop better norwegian skills. These fora are my best way to practice those skills. I do become exhausted sometimes though, so it is nice to come here and write without having to concentrate so much.

 

In general, I find culture interesting especially foreign culture and attempting to discover why we think and act differently. It would be nice if more americans had more international contacts to develop deeper understanding of each other.

 

Thanks for sharing your viewpoints with me,

 

MVH,

JJK

[Anarkhos]

All of these could be wrong, of course but it is not something antiquated that only a few idiots believe about norwegian culture, it is widely held as a cultural phenomena.

 

All I can say is that I have never seen "Scandinavian society" described in this manner before I read this thread.

 

I guess it was not common with three cars in that area, then.. You could also question the necessity of it, perhaps it was considered excessive. Not that it displayed wealth, but recklessness. There are many ways to explain the behaviour. I'll return to this in my last paragraph.

 

What is reckless about owning 3 cars?

 

Redundancy.

 

The only definitions of recklessness that I know of imply behavior that is potentially dangerous. What danger owning 3 cars is or what you are trying to say is a mystery to me.

 

Here is one dictionary equating 'reckless' with 'irresponsible'

 

 

In any event I think the horse is rather dead and we stand polar opposites on this subject.

 

I agree, I feel that the topic is pretty exhausted at this point..

 

I suspect residency in some english speaking environment?

 

Actually, at no point. I have made a relatively short trip to the UK, and that's about it. I am sure that I am just one of many who have found that browsing the Internet over time has made their English better (obviously, one must have many visits to websites in English).

 

 

Personally I regret not living longer in Norway to develop better norwegian skills. These fora are my best way to practice those skills. I do become exhausted sometimes though, so it is nice to come here and write without having to concentrate so much.

 

In general, I find culture interesting especially foreign culture and attempting to discover why we think and act differently. It would be nice if more americans had more international contacts to develop deeper understanding of each other.

 

Thanks for sharing your viewpoints with me,

 

MVH,

JJK

 

Cheers.

 

Exposure is indeed important. I have studied German in school over several years, but if I ever had to talk to one of the numerous German tourists in this country, I'd do my best to ensure that the conversation was in English rather than German - it would make it considerably easier on my part (I rarely practice my German).

 

I reckon there are not many reasons for visiting websites in Norwegian, otherwise one happened to be interested in Norwegian domestic affairs (or is indeed interested in learning the language). As a Norwegian, on the other hand, one would benefit greatly from visiting sites like BBC and CNN to get more/more detailed stories on many 'international' topics. In a similar manner, there are probably good reasons to visit French and German websites if one is searching for more details and more stories.