Er det riktig å boikotte Israel?

[Niskivara]

Jepp, jeg skrev aldri at Norge har boikottet Israel..

det er oganisasjoner som SV og LO skriker hőyt for en boikott.

Ikke minst har landets antisemmitisme gátt frem.

 

Det hva jeg og pricks har lagt frem,er mer enn nok til á forteller verden om situasjonen. Men selvfőlgelig finnes det folk som overser de...

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Tidligere utenriksminister i Israel om påstander om økende anti-semitisme i Europa:

 

Today, it seems to me that the problem of anti-Semitism, when it happens, for example, in France, and synagogues are being attacked, etc., if this happens through the hands of Muslim youngsters in the suburbs of Paris, for me it is very difficult to define this as anti-Semitism. I can define it as hooliganism and manipulation of the conflict in the Middle East in order to perpetrate all kind of nasty acts against Jewish holy places, but this is not what we understand as anti-Semitism, which is a European malady, as it were. I think it was there always. It will continue to be there, but I am not in the business of counting how many incidents happen, because there is an institute in Tel Aviv University that will tell you how many incidents happen every year. I don't believe also that the number of incidents, as such, is the reflection of whether or not anti-Semitism is growing. I believe that it is there, I believe it will stay there as a sub-cultural current in many European societies, but I'm not scandalized by anti-Semitism today.

 

I can see more xenophobia against North Africans, against foreigners throughout Europe.And in a way, in a way, I can even see a reconciliation of Europe with its Jewish past. There is hardly a European country where you will not find today a museum of Jewish history. Not in only Germany, you will find it in Poland, in France, all over the place. So, Judaism is being endorsed more and more, or the Jewish history, as part of the whole European legacy. The problem today is, in my view, much more that of the Arab, the Muslim immigrants from North Africa, from the Middle East and other parts.

Bare en mening fra en som faktisk har sittet i regjering i Israel.

 

Uansett...

 

Å linke SV og LO opp til anti-semitisme er et rimelig drøyt påfunn.

 

Det er ingen spesiel sammenheng mellom motstand mot Israels politikk og anti-semitisme. Men anti-semitistiske grupper prøver jo selvfølgelig å utnytte det at mange er i mot politikken til Israel, men de finner nok at det er langt lettere å utnytte folks xenofobi for arabere og nord/øst-afrikanere i disse dager. Noe som merkes ganske godt på forumet her. Tell tråder, om du vil.

Endret 1. juni 2007 av Niskivara

[trn100]

Å linke SV og LO opp til anti-semitisme er et rimelig drøyt påfunn.

 

Det er ingen spesiel sammenheng mellom motstand mot Israels politikk og anti-semitisme. Men anti-semitistiske grupper prøver jo selvfølgelig å utnytte det at mange er i mot politikken til Israel, men de finner nok at det er langt lettere å utnytte folks xenofobi for arabere og nord/øst-afrikanere i disse dager. Noe som merkes ganske godt på forumet her. Tell tråder, om du vil.

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Det eneste kanskje mange lurer på er hvem som er mest verdt.... Israelere eller Arabere.... Og hvem som har mest rett på eget land liksom....

[Nonzchi]

Jeg merker at du fikk dine ideer ut av palestinere? lol? 

Ideene kom fra palestinere, det var det du etterlyste.

 

Også må jeg retter på dine tåkete kunnskap:

For det første så var det ikke Yitzhak Rabin som var da værende statsminister, men det var yitzhak Shamir. Rabin er generasjonen, etter shamir.

Yitzhak Rabin ble sitert fra da han var statsminister, i desember 1975. Shamir refererte jeg også til. Jeg hevdet aldri at Rabin var statsminister i 1991, og jeg vil igjen anbefale deg å lese hva jeg faktisk skriver.

 

jepp, bullshit...

Talen var ingenting annet enn å ber alle til å synes synd på dem, med et snev av "maybe we want peace?"

Feil, konklusjonen var at FN-resolusjonene «must be respected and, impartially and uniformly, implemented».

 

Og initiative for fred? Det kom i fra Israel!

Hvorvidt Israel hadde den samme holdningen er meg likegyldig.

 

Ellers vil jeg minne deg på at du enda ikke har klart å svare på hva vi faktisk diskuterer.

[Tokse]

Tokse, Deir Yassin var FØR Israel ble grunnlagt. Det er passe uærlig å dra frem noe som ikke har noe med staten Israel å gjøre for å "bevise" at Israel har gjort noe galt!

 

Dette simple forsøket på å forenkle konflikten ved å plassere den etniske rensingen utenfor Israels historie er mislykket, for det første ettersom den etniske rensingen strakte seg lenger fram i tid enn Israels dannelse 14.mai 1948, bl.a. disse tilfellene:

 

There is ample evidence of forcible expulsions. The most notorious was the Lydda/Ramle death march. On July 12 and 13, 1948, on the direct order of Ben-Gurion, Israeli forces expelled the 50,000 residents of the towns of Lydda and neighboring Ramle. Yitzak Rabin, later to become Israeli Prime Minister, wrote in his memoirs that "there was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the ten or fifteen miles" required to reach Arab positions. Before they left, the townspeople were "systematically stripped of all their belongings," according to the Economist newspaper in London. Many of the expelled died in the 100-degree heat during the trek.

(Kilder:4. Flapan, p. 81; Palumbo, pp. 126-138. Both attribute Ben-Gurion's responsibility on the basis of a section of Yitzak Rabin's memoirs published in the New York Times on October 22, 1979. Flapan attributes the Rabin quote to the same source. Palumbo quotes the August 21, 1948 issue of the Economist. )

http://palestinechronicle.com/story-2002060601283194.htm

 

Legg merke til at Yitzak Rabin bekrefter fordrivningen.

 

1948: Haganah advances on Jinin, evicting villagers (28-31 May)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Pa...d/Story564.html

 

Ifølge professor Ilan Pappe fra Israel også i 1967:

Pappe cited the forced expulsion of 38 Arab villages between 1948 and 1967, the expulsion of 300,000 Palestinians after the Six Day War, and the destruction of the three Latroun villages in 1967 as examples of how Israel has continued a policy of ethnic cleansing.

http://www.times.ps/etemplate.php?id=6430&...month=05&day=23

 

For det andre så ser man helt bort ifra det etniske aspektet ved konflikten ved en slik forenklet tilnærming. Det er dermed like surrealistisk som at noen skulle komme å si at overgrepene til Milosovic og serberne før dannelsen av Serbia er uten betydning i det etniske konflikten på Balkan og at ingen kan stilles til ansvar. Israel-palestina konflikten er også en slik etnisk konflikt og dermed kommer man ikke utenom historien, uansett statsgrenser, hvis man har et ønske om å forholde seg til helheten av det som er relevant i konflikten.

 

For det tredje så er det en konflikt mellom sionistene og palestinerne og det var sionististene som satte igang etnisk rensing.

 

Det er antageligvis mer interessant at sionistenes etniske rensing begynte før araberlandene gikk til angrep i 1948, faktisk når ca. halvparten av de fordrevne palestinerne var utdrevet. Da kan man altså stille spørsmålstegn ved hvem som angrep først, og særlig siden sionistene angrep den palestinske byen Jaffa dagen før Israel ble dannet. Jaffa var satt av til palestinerne i FNs delingsplan. Araberstatene angrep først etter dette igjen:

It was 46 years ago, on May 13, 1948—the day before Israel's creation—that the all-Arab seaside city of Jaffa surrendered to Jewish forces. It was the largest Arab city in Palestine and, under the U.N. Partition Plan, was to have been part of a Palestinian state. But Menachem Begin's terrorist Irgun group began bombarding civilian sectors of the city on April 25, terrifying the inhabitants into panicky flight.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404075.htm

 

Ellers, også fra din egen kilde:

 

"In his 1988 book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949, Morris argues that the 700,000 Palestinians who fled from their homes in 1947 left mostly due to fear of being caught in the crossfire, Israeli actions, or fear of Israeli actions, but not as the result of an expulsion plan."

Hvis du skal sitere konklusjoner fra Morris' historiske arbeid, så synes jeg du skal nevne det nyeste og mest oppdaterte arbeidet hans som står rett nedenfor det du siterer, altså:

 

"In his 2004 book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, he changes his perspective, and places the major responsibility for the creation of Palestinian refugees on militant Jewish organizations. According to Morris, these groups killed more Palestinians than previously thought. He also writes that expelling Palestinians was a goal that was shared with main Jewish leaders at the time. In The Birth, Morris argues that Israeli leaders wanted as few Arabs in the areas they were conquering as possible for demographic reasons. "

 

Når det gjelder historiske kilder så blir gjerne det historiske bildet klarere etterhvert som mer research gjøres så det er ikke å anbefale å referere til den eldste versjonen.

 

Det som er poenget her er at ja, Israel besvarte angrep fra arabere som tok til våpen innenfor Israels grenser. Dette er helt naturlig. Når man har en ytre fiende så nytter det ikke å ignorere indre fiender som vil angripe landet innenfra. At dette førte til at folk som støttet disse væpnede opprørerne måtte stikke av er ikke så merkelig. Hvis du først angriper noen så må du tåle at ilden blir besvart.

Nei, Poenget er at du fornekter at mange palestinere ble fordrevet fra mange byer mellom, noe som er dokumentert i overveldende mengder og også etterhvert av israelske historikere som Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe, som i boken hans "ethnic cleansing of Palestine"

“If the events of 1948 occurred today, nobody would hesitate to call them ethnic cleansing,” Israeli historian Ilan Pappe said in a lecture on Tuesday at the Orthodox Club in Ramallah, then adding that “nobody can say that it happened because of war. People became refugees, not because of a war, but because of a particular ideology.”

 

“Fifty-nine years since the Nakba, the historical evidence is more accessible than ever before,” Pappe asserted to the large and enthusiastic crowd attending his lecture earlier this week.

 

Repeatedly interrupted by applause, Pappe’s lecture described the history of the Zionist movement and the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem, elucidating his thesis that Zionism is an ideology which necessitated an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Citing the abundance of Zionist and Israeli archives and oral histories of witnesses and survivors, Pappe said that future historians would add relatively little to an event that has already been exhaustively documented.

 

Pappe, who was until this year a lecturer in the political science department at Haifa University, is often identified along with Benny Morris and Avi Shlaim as one of the “new historians,” referring to Israeli scholars who began in the 1980s to critically examine Israel’s history. Beginning next academic year, he will pursue his academic work at Exeter University in the UK. He is also the director of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies in Haifa.

 

Pappe, however, differs from many of these scholars in that he is considered to be anti-Zionist, and he has extended his analysis of the ethnic cleansing of 1948 into a critique of Israel’s policy in more recent years.

 

“I think the message the young state of Israel received [from its victory in the 1948 war] is that you can commit these crimes and nobody will report them,” Pappe said. “Because of this, ethnic cleansing turned from a policy into an ideology.”

 

Pappe cited the forced expulsion of 38 Arab villages between 1948 and 1967, the expulsion of 300,000 Palestinians after the Six Day War, and the destruction of the three Latroun villages in 1967 as examples of how Israel has continued a policy of ethnic cleansing.

http://www.times.ps/etemplate.php?id=6430&...month=05&day=23

 

Fra en anmeldelse på Amazon av historiker Michael Palumbos bok: "The Palestinian Catastrophe: The 1948 Expulsion of a People from Their Homeland":

In this book you will learn that the Palestinians did not leave because they were ordered to, on the contrary Arab radio broadcasts demanded that they *stay.* The Palestinians left, because they were terrorized, coerced, and, when all else failed, forced out. The Zionist movement never had any intention of living in peace with "their arab neighbors." From the very beginning (even before Herzl), they intended to claim the entire land for a Jewish State, and would only tolerate the smallest Arab minority possible. The Arab states declared war, but the fighting had started with the partition a year earlier. Their intervention was half-hearted at best and was never meant to destroy Israel (e.g. they never entered in the "jewish part" of the partition.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-...customerReviews

 

Mer fra Palumbo (og historikeren Flapan):

In 1937, Ben-Gurion told a Zionist meeting, “I favor partition of the country because when we become a strong power after the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throughout Palestine.” A year earlier, Ben-Gurion had written his son that if the Palestinians could not be removed from the country by negotiations, then “we will expel the Arabs and take their place.”(...)

 

How Were the Palestinians Expelled?

 

The principal myth perpetuated by the revisionists is that the Zionists had no intention of expelling Arabs from the state they were organizing. According to Tom Segev, in early 1948 the Jewish Agency made plans for “the integration of the Arabs into the life of the state.” [20] There is, however, no reason to believe that Ben-Gurion and his associates had given up their plans for an enlarged Jewish state from which most of the Palestinians would be excluded. They were well aware that the state proposed by the partition resolution left the Jews in danger of becoming a minority in their Zionist nation, which would not be viable unless large numbers of Arabs were excluded. But the Zionists were not sure how to get rid of the Palestinians.

 

While the fighting escalated in early 1948, Jewish Agency technical experts drew up plans for a state in which the Arab population would enjoy certain rights but would be denied any real power. A memorandum developed by A. Lotsky outlined “Principles and Aims of our Policy Towards the Arabs.” According to this document, a major aim in the new Zionist state would be to reduce Arab “political identification” and “prevent political and religious activism.” The ultimate goal of Zionist policy in the new state would be “to encourage the emigration of discontented Arabs.” [21] Various legal and financial harassment was suggested in order to encourage Arab emigration.

 

The 1948 war provided the opportunity for the Zionists to eject the Palestinians at gunpoint, yet force of arms is not the only way to expel people. In my forthcoming book, Imperial Israel, I show how the methods proposed in early 1948 were used to expel people from the occupied territories after 1967.

 

During the early phase of the Zionist-Palestinian conflict, the Arab exodus was relatively slow. This was largely a middle-class phenomenon. Flapan stresses the effect of Zionist economic warfare and the destruction of the Palestinian urban base, as well as the expulsion from surrounding villages, as a principal cause of the exodus in the first months of the war. He also mentions the Zionist campaign of psychological warfare, including leaflets dropped from the air, as a cause of Palestinian flight. Flapan's description of this early flight would have been enhanced if he had used British documents and Palestinian testimony which are available for this period.

http://www.doublestandards.org/palumbo1.html#r32

 

"Benny Morris (born in 1948) is an Israeli historian and unofficial leader of the New Historians, a group of scholars who dispute the mainstream historical view of the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."

Nå vet jeg ikke hva av det historiske arbeidet som den anonyme Wikipedia-skribenten regner som kontroversielt, men det er sant at mange av utgivelsene har vakte sterke reaksjoner i Israel, der den offisielle versjonen fra staten og fra historikere som primært bruker offisielt kilde-materiale tradisjonelt har vært å fornekte den etniske rensingen. Så sterke reaksjoner som dødstrusler, men kritikken har stillnet mer og mer:

 

Pappe’s own efforts to educate his countrymen have been met with limited success, as he has received death threats and intimidation for expressing his views, even from within the academic community. Pappe said in his lecture that a directive had been issued by the Israeli Ministry of Education not to allow him to speak in schools.

 

The culmination of Pappe’s antagonism with his university came in 2002, when the Dean of Humanities at Haifa University convened a trial “to judge Dr. Pappe on the offences he has committed and to use the court‘s full legal authority to expel him from the university.”

 

While Pappe was able to maintain his job as a result of an international campaign supporting his right to free speech, his relationship with the university and the Israeli academic community has remained tenuous. In his lecture, Pappe said that the past few years had seen a deterioration of free speech in Israel and targeting of critical voices, citing the recent attacks on former Knesset member Azmi Bishara and the Shafa’amr based legal NGO Adalah.

 

“Something is changing in the language,” Pappe said in his lecture, contending that the critical voices are disappearing, leaving the most extreme Zionist voices dominating the Israeli political scene. “They don’t hide anymore the plans for a Greater Jerusalem that will stretch from the north of Ramallah to the south of Bethlehem.”

http://www.times.ps/etemplate.php?id=6430&...month=05&day=23

 

Grunnen til at professor ved Ben Gurion-universitetet Ben Morris har hatt så stor innflytelse er nettopp fordi han er så pro-Israel som han er. Til og med Ex-utenriksminister i Israel Ben Ami godtok faktisk

historikerne Walt and Mearsheimer's teori "The creation of Israel in 1947-48 involved acts of ethnic cleansing, including executions, massacres and rapes by Jews, and Israel's subsequent conduct has often been brutal, belying any claim to moral superiority" på et tidligere tidspunkt enn Morris.

http://www.observer.com/taxonomy/term/29390

Endret 2. juni 2007 av Tokse

[Vaio]

Uansett...

 

Å linke SV og LO opp til anti-semitisme er et rimelig drøyt påfunn.

 

Det er ingen spesiel sammenheng mellom motstand mot Israels politikk og anti-semitisme. Men anti-semitistiske grupper prøver jo selvfølgelig å utnytte det at mange er i mot politikken til Israel, men de finner nok at det er langt lettere å utnytte folks xenofobi for arabere og nord/øst-afrikanere i disse dager. Noe som merkes ganske godt på forumet her. Tell tråder, om du vil.

8760130[/snapback]

En mening som kom i år 2000, hva med 6år etter?

 

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=131590

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=161204

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=155962

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=169327

http://www.vg.no/pub/vgart.hbs?artid=169313¨

 

 

Fordi skytingen på synagogen i oslo var en rent "muslimsk" holligans?

Holligans bruker stok og steiner, men "kuler", det var nytt...

Endret 2. juni 2007 av Vaio

[Vaio]

Ideene kom fra palestinere, det var det du etterlyste.

Nydelig formulert!

Jepp, la kråken passe på smykkene, og ulven til å passe på sauene?

Kan du finne noe mindre palestinsk?

 

Franske Le mond, Britisk BBC... what ever..

 

 

Yitzhak Rabin ble sitert fra da han var statsminister, i desember 1975. Shamir refererte jeg også til. Jeg hevdet aldri at Rabin var statsminister i 1991, og jeg vil igjen anbefale deg å lese hva jeg faktisk skriver.

hmmm! Her skjedde det noe merkelig...

 

Jeg quota deg: (Nonzchi @ 01/06-2007 : 10:29), og siste forandringen ble gjort i:

"Dette innlegget har blitt redigert av Nonzchi: i går, 12:03"

Jeg leste riktig nok at du skrev yitzhak Rabin 2 ganger...

 

Merkelig...

 

Neste gang skal jeg sørge for å "quote dine utsagner.." Så du slipper billig unna denne gangen..

 

Feil, konklusjonen var at FN-resolusjonene «must be respected and, impartially and uniformly, implemented».

Hva FN konkludere bry jeg meg midt i, fordi saken er om: Hvem kom med "velviljen"

 

Hvorvidt Israel hadde den samme holdningen er meg likegyldig.

 

Ellers vil jeg minne deg på at du enda ikke har klart å svare på hva vi faktisk diskuterer.

Ja ser her... Du ta det likegyldig?

 

Israel var det første landet som kom med "holdingen."

Hvis du ta det likegyldig så ser jeg egentlig ikke noe poeng med en diskusjon?.

 

"Jeg ta det likegyldig om Norge skal boikotte Israel, fordi det er Israel sin feil, uansett!"

Endret 2. juni 2007 av Vaio

[Niskivara]

Burde ikke du slutte å svare, Vaio, og heller begynne å lese dine egne linker? Blant annet om at over dobbelt så mange Palestinere som Israelere ble utsatt for massakere under 1948-krigen, eller om at nesten 10 ganger så mange Arabere som Jøder ble drept under Det Store Opprøret fra 1936 til 1939, eller om hvordan Irgun og andre Zionistiske terrorgrupper brukte terror mot både Araberne og Britene for å få tvunget til seg sin egen stat, og om hvordan FN regnet med at 700 000 Palestinere ble utvist fra sine hjem i 1948 i det alle seriøse historikere nå regner som etnisk rensing, eller om de ca 400 000 som ble utvist i 6 dagers krigen, eller om hvordan det til en hver tid regnes med at fra 4 til 10 ganger så mange Palestinere blir drept som Israelere, i tillegg til at det er sinnsyke mengder ulovlig i fengsel.

 

Alt dette finner du i egne linker.

[Vaio]

Burde ikke du slutte å svare, Vaio, og heller begynne å lese dine egne linker? Blant annet om at over dobbelt så mange Palestinere som Israelere ble utsatt for massakere under 1948-krigen, eller om at nesten 10 ganger så mange Arabere som Jøder ble drept under Det Store Opprøret fra 1936 til 1939, eller om hvordan Irgun og andre Zionistiske terrorgrupper brukte terror mot både Araberne og Britene for å få tvunget til seg sin egen stat, og om hvordan FN regnet med at 700 000 Palestinere ble utvist fra sine hjem i 1948 i det alle seriøse historikere nå regner som etnisk rensing, eller om de ca 400 000 som ble utvist i 6 dagers krigen, eller om hvordan det til en hver tid regnes med at fra 4 til 10 ganger så mange Palestinere blir drept som Israelere, i tillegg til at det er sinnsyke mengder ulovlig i fengsel.

 

Alt dette finner du i egne linker.

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Burde du ikke slutte å syte?

Mine egne linker sier at; under 1947 det var en kaos i Israel.

Arabere flyktet etter deres initiative, og ikke av etnisk rensing.

 

Om hjernen din har fått med deg: De som "ble", er dagens Israelsk statsborgerer.

Du har fått med det at Israel har araber som statsborger og regjeringsmedlem?

Endret 2. juni 2007 av Vaio

[Niskivara]

Burde du ikke slutte å syte?

Mine egne linker sier at; under 1947 det var en kaos i Israel.

Arabere flyktet etter deres initiative, og ikke av etnisk rensing.

 

Om hjernen din har fått med deg: De som "ble", er dagens Israelsk statsborgerer.

Du har fått med det at Israel har araber som statsborger og regjeringsmedlem?

8765760[/snapback]

Du har ennå ikke lest infoen fra linkene dine ordentlig ser jeg.

 

Angående apartheidet i Israel så er det relativt ukontroversielt. Til og med mainstream Israelske aviser har brukt ordet om situasjonen. Israel er et land bygget på etnisitet. Enkelt og greit. Ikke noe kontroversielt med å påpeke det.

 

Og angående arabere i regjeringen så kan du gjerne gå inn her, finne dem, og dele de biografiske detaljene med oss.

 

På forhånd, takk!

[Pricks]

Å kalle Israel et apartheidregime er tåpelig, særlig siden araberne er representert i nasjonalforsamlingen. "Apartheid" er det visst fordi de diskriminerer palestinere, men det er jo helt vanlig å diskriminere utendlandske statsborgere. Palestinere er ikke israelere, og har derfor ikke samme rettigheter som de som faktisk er israelere. Det samme gjelder med Norge og folk av andre nasjonaliteter.

 

At Israel ble grunnlagt for å få et jødisk flertall betyr ikke at det er et apartheidsystem.

[Vaio]

Du har ennå ikke lest infoen fra linkene dine ordentlig ser jeg.

Jeg har tatt deg for bløff før... og igjen..

Du vet: En mening må begrunnes, spesielt dine rare meninger.

 

Angående apartheidet i Israel så er det relativt ukontroversielt. Til og med mainstream Israelske aviser har brukt ordet om situasjonen. Israel er et land bygget på etnisitet. Enkelt og greit. Ikke noe kontroversielt med å påpeke det.

Har Norge noen "ikke etnisk Norsk" i ministerpost? eller viseministerpost?

Aparthei er typisk brukt ord av motstandere, hjernevasket av palestinere.

Aviser og medier har brukt "masse rart," til å øke nygjerrigheten..

 

Og angående arabere i regjeringen så kan du gjerne gå inn her, finne dem, og dele de biografiske detaljene med oss.

Høyt æret Arab-Israelsk soldat.

 

Arab-Israelsk politiker:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmad_Tibi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azmi_Bishara

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emile_Habibi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Barakeh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issam_Makhoul

 

Prominente Arab-Israelsk topstilling politiker.

Vise utdanningsminister av Israel:

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Governmen...jalli+Whbee.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majalli_Wahabi

 

Forskning og sportminister av Israel:

http://www.israel-mfa.gov.il/MFA/Governmen...eb+Majadele.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raleb_Majadele

 

litt mer:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel

 

som Pricks sa: "...Den rette kjeften smalt.."

Endret 3. juni 2007 av Vaio

[Mr.M]

Burde ikke du slutte å svare, Vaio, og heller begynne å lese dine egne linker? Blant annet om at over dobbelt så mange Palestinere som Israelere ble utsatt for massakere under 1948-krigen, eller om at nesten 10 ganger så mange Arabere som Jøder ble drept under Det Store Opprøret fra 1936 til 1939, eller om hvordan Irgun og andre Zionistiske terrorgrupper brukte terror mot både Araberne og Britene for å få tvunget til seg sin egen stat, og om hvordan FN regnet med at 700 000 Palestinere ble utvist fra sine hjem i 1948 i det alle seriøse historikere nå regner som etnisk rensing, eller om de ca 400 000 som ble utvist i 6 dagers krigen, eller om hvordan det til en hver tid regnes med at fra 4 til 10 ganger så mange Palestinere blir drept som Israelere, i tillegg til at det er sinnsyke mengder ulovlig i fengsel.

 

Alt dette finner du i egne linker.

8765475[/snapback]

 

Burde du ikke slutte å syte?

Mine egne linker sier at; under 1947 det var en kaos i Israel.

Arabere flyktet etter deres initiative, og ikke av etnisk rensing.

8765760[/snapback]

Jada, araberne synes sikkert det var morsomt å legge ut på marsj, og frivillig forlate hus og eiendommer? LOL :!: Det blir like tåpelig som å påstå at årsaken til så mange jøder havnet i Auswitch var fordi de synes det var morro å kjøre tog. :!:

 

Itensiteten og benektelsen her (tiltross for all dokumentasjon) av at arabere/palestinere led overlast, minner om David Irving's benektelse av Holocaust.

[Vaio]

Jada, araberne synes sikkert det var morsomt å legge ut på marsj, og frivillig forlate hus og eiendommer? LOL  :!:  Det blir like tåpelig som å påstå at årsaken til så mange jøder havnet i Auswitch var fordi de synes det var morro å kjøre tog.  :!:

 

Itensiteten og benektelsen her (tiltross for all dokumentasjon) av at arabere/palestinere led overlast, minner om David Irving's benektelse av Holocaust. 

8768256[/snapback]

 

"Rumours spread that the Husaynis were planning to bring in bands of fallahin to take over the towns (Gelber, p. 76). Some Palestinian Arab leaders set a bad example by sending their own families abroad (Gelber, pp. 76-77). The Arab Liberation Army embarked on a systematic evacuation of non-combatants from several frontier villages in order to turn them into military strongholds (Gelber, p. 79). By the end of March 1948 around 100,000 Palestinian Arabs had fled to other parts of Palestine such as Nazareth, Nablus and Bethlehem or had left the country altogether (Morris, p. 67) to settle in Transjordan or Egypt. Many of these were Palestinian Arab leaders, middle and upper-class Palestinian Arab families from urban areas. Around 22 March the Arab governments agreed that their consulates in Palestine would only issues visas to old people, women and children and the sick (Ibid, p. 134). On 29-30 March the Haganah Intelligence Service (HIS) reported that 'the AHC was no longer approving exit permits for fear of [causing] panic in the country' (Ibid, p. 137 quoting Haganah Archive (HA) 105\257)."

 

Du kan alltid være kynisk, eller realt, det er opptil deg..

Endret 2. juni 2007 av Vaio

[Tokse]

Jada, araberne synes sikkert det var morsomt å legge ut på marsj, og frivillig forlate hus og eiendommer? LOL  :!:  Det blir like tåpelig som å påstå at årsaken til så mange jøder havnet i Auswitch var fordi de synes det var morro å kjøre tog.  :!:

 

Itensiteten og benektelsen her (tiltross for all dokumentasjon) av at arabere/palestinere led overlast, minner om David Irving's benektelse av Holocaust. 

8768256[/snapback]

 

"Rumours spread that the Husaynis were planning to bring in bands of fallahin to take over the towns (Gelber, p. 76). Some Palestinian Arab leaders set a bad example by sending their own families abroad (Gelber, pp. 76-77). The Arab Liberation Army embarked on a systematic evacuation of non-combatants from several frontier villages in order to turn them into military strongholds (Gelber, p. 79). By the end of March 1948 around 100,000 Palestinian Arabs had fled to other parts of Palestine such as Nazareth, Nablus and Bethlehem or had left the country altogether (Morris, p. 67) to settle in Transjordan or Egypt. Many of these were Palestinian Arab leaders, middle and upper-class Palestinian Arab families from urban areas. Around 22 March the Arab governments agreed that their consulates in Palestine would only issues visas to old people, women and children and the sick (Ibid, p. 134). On 29-30 March the Haganah Intelligence Service (HIS) reported that 'the AHC was no longer approving exit permits for fear of [causing] panic in the country' (Ibid, p. 137 quoting Haganah Archive (HA) 105\257)."

 

Du kan alltid være kynisk eller realt. Det er opptil deg..

8768473[/snapback]

Ved å referere til Morris, som du gjør her, så viser du at du stoler på Morris som historisk kilde. Og da bør du forholde deg til hele historien han formidler, og ikke bare en del av den. Altså:

The book shows a map of empty Palestinian villages, and explains why the villagers left; 228 villages were evacuated due to attack from Jewish forces. In 41 villages, he writes that the inhabitants were expelled by military forces; in another 90 villages, that the inhabitants panicked because of attacks on other villages, and fled. In six villages, he writes, the inhabitants left under instructions from local Palestinian authorities. He was unable to find out why another 46 villages were abandoned(...)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Morris

Endret 2. juni 2007 av Tokse

[Mr.M]

Jada, araberne synes sikkert det var morsomt å legge ut på marsj, og frivillig forlate hus og eiendommer? LOL :!: Det blir like tåpelig som å påstå at årsaken til så mange jøder havnet i Auswitch var fordi de synes det var morro å kjøre tog. :!:

 

Itensiteten og benektelsen her (tiltross for all dokumentasjon) av at arabere/palestinere led overlast, minner om David Irving's benektelse av Holocaust.

8768256[/snapback]

 

"Rumours spread that the Husaynis were planning to bring in bands of fallahin to take over the towns (Gelber' date=' p. 76). Some Palestinian Arab leaders set a bad example by sending their own families abroad (Gelber, pp. 76-77). The Arab Liberation Army embarked on a systematic evacuation of non-combatants from several frontier villages in order to turn them into military strongholds (Gelber, p. 79). By the end of March 1948 around 100,000 Palestinian Arabs had fled to other parts of Palestine such as Nazareth, Nablus and Bethlehem or had left the country altogether (Morris, p. 67) to settle in Transjordan or Egypt. Many of these were Palestinian Arab leaders, middle and upper-class Palestinian Arab families from urban areas. Around 22 March the Arab governments agreed that their consulates in Palestine would only issues visas to old people, women and children and the sick (Ibid, p. 134). On 29-30 March the Haganah Intelligence Service (HIS) reported that 'the AHC was no longer approving exit permits for fear of [causing'] panic in the country' (Ibid, p. 137 quoting Haganah Archive (HA) 105\257)."

 

Du kan alltid være kynisk eller realt. Det er opptil deg..

8768473[/snapback]

Vel, du misliker det nok, -det finnes jøder som kaller behandlingen av araberne/palestinerne for etnisk rensing;

 

Israeli Professor Ilan Pappe: "Ethnic cleansing turned from a policy into an ideology"

 

"If the events of 1948 occurred today, nobody would hesitate to call them ethnic cleansing,” Israeli historian Ilan Pappe said in a lecture on Tuesday at the Orthodox Club in Ramallah, then adding that “nobody can say that it happened because of war. People became refugees, not because of a war, but because of a particular ideology." Link

 

Videre anbefaler jeg å lese Tokse's innlegg som du tydeligvis hoppet over..

 

Klikk for å se/fjerne innholdet nedenfor

Dette simple forsøket på å forenkle konflikten ved å plassere den etniske rensingen utenfor Israels historie er mislykket, for det første ettersom den etniske rensingen strakte seg lenger fram i tid enn Israels dannelse 14.mai 1948, bl.a. disse tilfellene:

 

There is ample evidence of forcible expulsions. The most notorious was the Lydda/Ramle death march. On July 12 and 13, 1948, on the direct order of Ben-Gurion, Israeli forces expelled the 50,000 residents of the towns of Lydda and neighboring Ramle. Yitzak Rabin, later to become Israeli Prime Minister, wrote in his memoirs that "there was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the ten or fifteen miles" required to reach Arab positions. Before they left, the townspeople were "systematically stripped of all their belongings," according to the Economist newspaper in London. Many of the expelled died in the 100-degree heat during the trek.

(Kilder:4. Flapan, p. 81; Palumbo, pp. 126-138. Both attribute Ben-Gurion's responsibility on the basis of a section of Yitzak Rabin's memoirs published in the New York Times on October 22, 1979. Flapan attributes the Rabin quote to the same source. Palumbo quotes the August 21, 1948 issue of the Economist. )

http://palestinechronicle.com/story-2002060601283194.htm

 

Legg merke til at Yitzak Rabin bekrefter fordrivningen.

 

1948: Haganah advances on Jinin, evicting villagers (28-31 May)

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Pa...d/Story564.html

 

Ifølge professor Ilan Pappe fra Israel også i 1967:

Pappe cited the forced expulsion of 38 Arab villages between 1948 and 1967, the expulsion of 300,000 Palestinians after the Six Day War, and the destruction of the three Latroun villages in 1967 as examples of how Israel has continued a policy of ethnic cleansing.

http://www.times.ps/etemplate.php?id=6430&...month=05&day=23

 

For det andre så ser man helt bort ifra det etniske aspektet ved konflikten ved en slik forenklet tilnærming. Det er dermed like surrealistisk som at noen skulle komme å si at overgrepene til Milosovic og serberne før dannelsen av Serbia er uten betydning i det etniske konflikten på Balkan og at ingen kan stilles til ansvar. Israel-palestina konflikten er også en slik etnisk konflikt og dermed kommer man ikke utenom historien, uansett statsgrenser, hvis man har et ønske om å forholde seg til helheten av det som er relevant i konflikten.

 

For det tredje så er det en konflikt mellom sionistene og palestinerne og det var sionististene som satte igang etnisk rensing.

 

Det er antageligvis mer interessant at sionistenes etniske rensing begynte før araberlandene gikk til angrep i 1948, faktisk når ca. halvparten av de fordrevne palestinerne var utdrevet. Da kan man altså stille spørsmålstegn ved hvem som angrep først, og særlig siden sionistene angrep den palestinske byen Jaffa dagen før Israel ble dannet. Jaffa var satt av til palestinerne i FNs delingsplan. Araberstatene angrep først etter dette igjen:

It was 46 years ago, on May 13, 1948—the day before Israel's creation—that the all-Arab seaside city of Jaffa surrendered to Jewish forces. It was the largest Arab city in Palestine and, under the U.N. Partition Plan, was to have been part of a Palestinian state. But Menachem Begin's terrorist Irgun group began bombarding civilian sectors of the city on April 25, terrifying the inhabitants into panicky flight.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0494/9404075.htm

 

 

"In his 1988 book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949, Morris argues that the 700,000 Palestinians who fled from their homes in 1947 left mostly due to fear of being caught in the crossfire, Israeli actions, or fear of Israeli actions, but not as the result of an expulsion plan."

Hvis du skal sitere konklusjoner fra Morris' historiske arbeid, så synes jeg du skal nevne det nyeste og mest oppdaterte arbeidet hans som står rett nedenfor det du siterer, altså:

 

"In his 2004 book The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited, he changes his perspective, and places the major responsibility for the creation of Palestinian refugees on militant Jewish organizations. According to Morris, these groups killed more Palestinians than previously thought. He also writes that expelling Palestinians was a goal that was shared with main Jewish leaders at the time. In The Birth, Morris argues that Israeli leaders wanted as few Arabs in the areas they were conquering as possible for demographic reasons. "

 

Når det gjelder historiske kilder så blir gjerne det historiske bildet klarere etterhvert som mer research gjøres så det er ikke å anbefale å referere til den eldste versjonen.

 

Det som er poenget her er at ja' date=' Israel besvarte angrep fra arabere som tok til våpen innenfor Israels grenser. Dette er helt naturlig. Når man har en ytre fiende så nytter det ikke å ignorere indre fiender som vil angripe landet innenfra. At dette førte til at folk som støttet disse væpnede opprørerne måtte stikke av er ikke så merkelig. Hvis du først angriper noen så må du tåle at ilden blir besvart.[/quote']

Nei, Poenget er at du fornekter at mange palestinere ble fordrevet fra mange byer mellom, noe som er dokumentert i overveldende mengder og også etterhvert av israelske historikere som Benny Morris, Ilan Pappe, som i boken hans "ethnic cleansing of Palestine"

“If the events of 1948 occurred today, nobody would hesitate to call them ethnic cleansing,” Israeli historian Ilan Pappe said in a lecture on Tuesday at the Orthodox Club in Ramallah, then adding that “nobody can say that it happened because of war. People became refugees, not because of a war, but because of a particular ideology.”

 

“Fifty-nine years since the Nakba, the historical evidence is more accessible than ever before,” Pappe asserted to the large and enthusiastic crowd attending his lecture earlier this week.

 

Repeatedly interrupted by applause, Pappe’s lecture described the history of the Zionist movement and the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem, elucidating his thesis that Zionism is an ideology which necessitated an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. Citing the abundance of Zionist and Israeli archives and oral histories of witnesses and survivors, Pappe said that future historians would add relatively little to an event that has already been exhaustively documented.

 

Pappe, who was until this year a lecturer in the political science department at Haifa University, is often identified along with Benny Morris and Avi Shlaim as one of the “new historians,” referring to Israeli scholars who began in the 1980s to critically examine Israel’s history. Beginning next academic year, he will pursue his academic work at Exeter University in the UK. He is also the director of the Emil Touma Institute for Palestinian Studies in Haifa.

 

Pappe, however, differs from many of these scholars in that he is considered to be anti-Zionist, and he has extended his analysis of the ethnic cleansing of 1948 into a critique of Israel’s policy in more recent years.

 

“I think the message the young state of Israel received [from its victory in the 1948 war] is that you can commit these crimes and nobody will report them,” Pappe said. “Because of this, ethnic cleansing turned from a policy into an ideology.”

 

Pappe cited the forced expulsion of 38 Arab villages between 1948 and 1967, the expulsion of 300,000 Palestinians after the Six Day War, and the destruction of the three Latroun villages in 1967 as examples of how Israel has continued a policy of ethnic cleansing.

http://www.times.ps/etemplate.php?id=6430&...month=05&day=23

 

Fra en anmeldelse på Amazon av historiker Michael Palumbos bok: "The Palestinian Catastrophe: The 1948 Expulsion of a People from Their Homeland":

In this book you will learn that the Palestinians did not leave because they were ordered to, on the contrary Arab radio broadcasts demanded that they *stay.* The Palestinians left, because they were terrorized, coerced, and, when all else failed, forced out. The Zionist movement never had any intention of living in peace with "their arab neighbors." From the very beginning (even before Herzl), they intended to claim the entire land for a Jewish State, and would only tolerate the smallest Arab minority possible. The Arab states declared war, but the fighting had started with the partition a year earlier. Their intervention was half-hearted at best and was never meant to destroy Israel (e.g. they never entered in the "jewish part" of the partition.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/customer-...customerReviews

 

Mer fra Palumbo (og historikeren Flapan):

In 1937, Ben-Gurion told a Zionist meeting, “I favor partition of the country because when we become a strong power after the establishment of the state, we will abolish partition and spread throughout Palestine.” A year earlier, Ben-Gurion had written his son that if the Palestinians could not be removed from the country by negotiations, then “we will expel the Arabs and take their place.”(...)

 

How Were the Palestinians Expelled?

 

The principal myth perpetuated by the revisionists is that the Zionists had no intention of expelling Arabs from the state they were organizing. According to Tom Segev, in early 1948 the Jewish Agency made plans for “the integration of the Arabs into the life of the state.” [20] There is, however, no reason to believe that Ben-Gurion and his associates had given up their plans for an enlarged Jewish state from which most of the Palestinians would be excluded. They were well aware that the state proposed by the partition resolution left the Jews in danger of becoming a minority in their Zionist nation, which would not be viable unless large numbers of Arabs were excluded. But the Zionists were not sure how to get rid of the Palestinians.

 

While the fighting escalated in early 1948, Jewish Agency technical experts drew up plans for a state in which the Arab population would enjoy certain rights but would be denied any real power. A memorandum developed by A. Lotsky outlined “Principles and Aims of our Policy Towards the Arabs.” According to this document, a major aim in the new Zionist state would be to reduce Arab “political identification” and “prevent political and religious activism.” The ultimate goal of Zionist policy in the new state would be “to encourage the emigration of discontented Arabs.” [21] Various legal and financial harassment was suggested in order to encourage Arab emigration.

 

The 1948 war provided the opportunity for the Zionists to eject the Palestinians at gunpoint, yet force of arms is not the only way to expel people. In my forthcoming book, Imperial Israel, I show how the methods proposed in early 1948 were used to expel people from the occupied territories after 1967.

 

During the early phase of the Zionist-Palestinian conflict, the Arab exodus was relatively slow. This was largely a middle-class phenomenon. Flapan stresses the effect of Zionist economic warfare and the destruction of the Palestinian urban base, as well as the expulsion from surrounding villages, as a principal cause of the exodus in the first months of the war. He also mentions the Zionist campaign of psychological warfare, including leaflets dropped from the air, as a cause of Palestinian flight. Flapan's description of this early flight would have been enhanced if he had used British documents and Palestinian testimony which are available for this period.

http://www.doublestandards.org/palumbo1.html#r32

 

"Benny Morris (born in 1948) is an Israeli historian and unofficial leader of the New Historians' date=' a group of scholars who dispute the mainstream historical view of the origins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict."[/quote']

Nå vet jeg ikke hva av det historiske arbeidet som den anonyme Wikipedia-skribenten regner som kontroversielt, men det er sant at mange av utgivelsene har vakte sterke reaksjoner i Israel, der den offisielle versjonen fra staten og fra historikere som primært bruker offisielt kilde-materiale tradisjonelt har vært å fornekte den etniske rensingen. Så sterke reaksjoner som dødstrusler, men kritikken har stillnet mer og mer:

 

Pappe’s own efforts to educate his countrymen have been met with limited success, as he has received death threats and intimidation for expressing his views, even from within the academic community. Pappe said in his lecture that a directive had been issued by the Israeli Ministry of Education not to allow him to speak in schools.

 

The culmination of Pappe’s antagonism with his university came in 2002, when the Dean of Humanities at Haifa University convened a trial “to judge Dr. Pappe on the offences he has committed and to use the court‘s full legal authority to expel him from the university.”

 

While Pappe was able to maintain his job as a result of an international campaign supporting his right to free speech, his relationship with the university and the Israeli academic community has remained tenuous. In his lecture, Pappe said that the past few years had seen a deterioration of free speech in Israel and targeting of critical voices, citing the recent attacks on former Knesset member Azmi Bishara and the Shafa’amr based legal NGO Adalah.

 

“Something is changing in the language,” Pappe said in his lecture, contending that the critical voices are disappearing, leaving the most extreme Zionist voices dominating the Israeli political scene. “They don’t hide anymore the plans for a Greater Jerusalem that will stretch from the north of Ramallah to the south of Bethlehem.”

http://www.times.ps/etemplate.php?id=6430&...month=05&day=23

 

Grunnen til at professor ved Ben Gurion-universitetet Ben Morris har hatt så stor innflytelse er nettopp fordi han er så pro-Israel som han er. Til og med Ex-utenriksminister i Israel Ben Ami godtok faktisk

historikerne Walt and Mearsheimer's teori "The creation of Israel in 1947-48 involved acts of ethnic cleansing, including executions, massacres and rapes by Jews, and Israel's subsequent conduct has often been brutal, belying any claim to moral superiority" på et tidligere tidspunkt enn Morris.

http://www.observer.com/taxonomy/term/29390

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Endret 2. juni 2007 av Hotbox

[Vaio]

Ved å referere til Morris, som du gjør her, så viser du at du stoler på Morris som historisk kilde. Og da forplikter du deg til å forholde deg til hele historien han formidler, og ikke bare en del av den.

Nei!

Wikipedia gi flere forfattere/historiker som kilder inkludert Morris.

Skal jeg forplikter meg til Morris, så må også Gelber, arkivet til Haganah Intelligence Service osv... være inkludert.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_exodus

Arzt, Donna E. (1997). Refugees into Citizens: Palestinians and the End of the Arab-Israeli Conflict. Council on Foreign Relations. ISBN 0-87609-194-X

Atiyah, Edward Selim, The Arabs, London, Penguin Books, 1958

Beit-Hallahmi, Benny (1993). Original Sins: Reflections on the History of Zionism and Israel. Oliver Branch Press. ISBN 1-56656-131-0

Benvenisti, Meron (2002) Sacred Landscape. University of California Press. ISBN 0-520-23422-7

Bowker, Robert (2003). Palestinian Refugees: Mythology, Identity, and the Search for Peace. Lynne Rienner Publishers. ISBN 1-58826-202-2

Dershowitz, Alan (2003). The Case for Israel. Hoboken, New Jersey: John Wiley & Sons, Inc. ISBN 0-471-67962-6.

Finkelstein, Norman (2003). Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, 2nd Ed. Verso. ISBN 1-85984-442-1

Fischbach, Michael R. (2003). Records of Dispossession: Palestinian Refugee Property and the Arab-Israeli Conflict. Columbia University Press. ISBN 0-231-12978-5

Gelber, Yoav (2006). Palestine 1948. War, Escape and the Emergence of the Palestinian Refugee Problem. Sussex Acadam Press. ISBN 1-84519-075-0.

Kanaaneh, Rhoda A. (2002). Birthing the Nation: Strategies of Palestinian Women in Israel. University of California Press. ISBN 0-520-22944-4

Katz, Shmuel (1973) Battleground: Fact and Fantasy in Palestine Shapolsky Pub; ISBN 0-933503-03-2

Khalidi, Walid (1959). Why Did the Palestinians Leave? Middle East Forum, July 1959. Reprinted as 'Why Did the Palestinians Leave Revisited', 2005, Journal of Palestine Studies, XXXIV, No. 2., pp. 42-54.

Khalidi, Walid (1961). Plan Dalet, Master Plan for the Conquest of Palestine. Middle East Forum, November 1961.

Lehn, Walter & Davis, Uri (1988). The Jewish National Fund. London : Kegan Paul.

Morris, Benny (2001). Revisiting the Palestinian exodus of 1948. In The War for Palestine: Rewriting the History of 1948 (pp. 37-59). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-79476-5

Morris, Benny (2003). The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-00967-7

Masalha, Nur (1992). Expulsion of the Palestinians: The Concept of "Transfer" in Zionist Political Thought, 1882-1948. Beirut: Institute for Palestine Studies. ISBN 0-88728-235-0

Pappe, Ilan (2006). The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine. Oxford: One World Books. (2006) ISBN 1-85168-467-0

Peretz, Don (1958). Israel and the Palestinian Arabs. Washington: Middle East Institute.

Plascov, Avi (1981). Palestinian Refugees in Jordan, 1948-1957. London: Routledge. ISBN 0-7146-3120-5

Quigley, John B. (2005). The Case For Palestine: An International Law Perspective. Duke University Press. ISBN 0-8223-3539-5

Rogan, Eugene L., & Shlaim, Avi (Eds.). (2001). The War for Palestine: Rewriting the History of 1948. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0-521-79476-5

Joseph B. Schechtman, The Refugees In the World (New York, 1963)

Schulz, Helena L. (2003). The Palestinian Diaspora. London: Routledge. ISBN 0-415-26821-4

Sternhell, Zeev (1999). The Founding Myths of Israel: Nationalism, Socialism, and the Making of the Jewish State. Princeton University Press. ISBN 0-691-00967-8

Endret 2. juni 2007 av Vaio

[Vaio]

Vel, du misliker det nok, -det finnes jøder som kaller behandlingen av araberne/palestinerne for etnisk rensing

Det finnes jøder som sier at det er selvforsvar, det finnes jøder som sier etnisk resning, og det finnes jøder som selv nekter på holocaust.

 

Jeg ta det med et balansert og realt syn på saken.

Hva som er virkelig, er ikke hva som blir ment, men hva som er sant.

 

Ta et titt på reference i wikilinken jeg ga deg du...

Så ser du hvor mangen som er for og imot...

[Tokse]

Vaio: Vel, da synes jeg du burde ha klippet bort Morris-referatet:

" By the end of March 1948 around 100,000 Palestinian Arabs had fled to other parts of Palestine such as Nazareth, Nablus and Bethlehem or had left the country altogether (Morris, p. 67) to settle in Transjordan or Egypt."

, hvis du forkaster han som historiker.

 

Men siden du tydeligvis holder Wikipedia høyt som kilde, hva med Yitzak Rabins egne memoarer:

The largest single expulsion of the war began in Lydda and Ramla July 14. 60,000 inhabitants of the two cities were forcibly expelled on the orders of Ben-Gurion and Yitzhak Rabin. Rabin wrote in his memoirs:

 

    What would they do with the 50,000 civilians in the two cities ... Not even Ben-Gurion could offer a solution, and during the discussion at operation headquarters, he remained silent, as was his habit in such situations. Clearly, we could not leave [Lydda's] hostile and armed populace in our rear, where it could endanger the supply route [to the troops who were] advancing eastward. ... Allon repeated the question: What is to be done with the population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture that said: Drive them out! ... 'Driving out' is a term with a harsh ring ... Psychologically, this was one of the most difficult actions we undertook. The population of [Lydda] did not leave willingly. There was no way of avoiding the use of force and warning shots in order to make the inhabitants march the 10 to 15 miles to the point where they met up with the legion. (Soldier of Peace, p. 140-141)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_exodus

Er det også løgn og bedrag?

Endret 3. juni 2007 av Tokse

[Mr.M]

Araberne/palestinerne ble drevet på flukt for å gi plass til jøder som strømmet til fra worldwide. At Israel ulovlig og i strid med folkeretten har greid å bosette 450 000 jøder på okkupert mark taler for seg selv i så henseende.

[DalaiLaban]

Araberne/palestinerne ble drevet på flukt for å gi plass til jøder som strømmet til fra worldwide. At Israel ulovlig og i strid med folkeretten har greid å bosette 450 000 jøder på okkupert mark taler for seg selv i så henseende. 

8768820[/snapback]

 

Enig der.

Hadde ikke akurat smilt fra øre til øre jeg hvis noen kom å påsto at de skulle ha halve østnorge fordi det sto i deres religion at det var deres hellige sted.

MEN husk at det er forskjell på israelitter og jøder da... sånn per definisjon.

 

Det er mye drøyt her i verden...