Den store Warlock tråden...

[Jørgen Sørheim]

Knert heller Scorn som dukker opp på gravplassen etter Bloodmage Thalsomethingsomething, han dropper en finfin neck.

 

Men, såklart Hypnotic og Orb (evt. Umbral crystal om du finner den på AH). +dmg > all som warlock.

[nazrm]

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.a...k&T=1141089&P=1

 

I have noticed a problem over the last few months and wanted to put my thoughts into words so that we can have a reasonable discussion (read: no "ZOMG NEFR DEATHCOLIZ!" replies necessary) about it and hopefully some resolutions in the months to come. I've got an extensive list of the problems as I see it and some proposed, realistic solutions for each of them at the end.

 

I have been a warlock since I started playing Warcraft well over a year and a half ago. I have over 100 days /played, more than 80% of them at 60. I have been in an endgame raiding guild for over a year, and we have cleared MC, ZG, BWL, AQ, and are working our way through Naxxramas. I am the warlock class lead for my guild, and have lead numerous raids as well. I have accumulated some of the best gear on my server including 7/8 T1 (damn you Felheart Pants), 8/8 T2, various other +damage pieces and weapons, and am working on my T3 set (I tend to be a stamina !@!#&). I have spent my time as a number of specs: Tri specced/Ruin, DP/Destruction, MD/Ruin, SL/Hybrid, and I keep coming back to SM/Ruin. And in the most recent months, I have noticed a disturbing trend... warlocks are being marginalized in the endgame.

 

Due to the changes in other classes, changes to endgame encounters, and most importantly the inability for warlocks to scale at endgame, I have been forced to justify bringing more than 2-3 warlocks to a 40 person raid week in and week out. The mage, rogue, hunter, and warrior leads and I have to continually duke it out each night just to bring a 4th (and heaven forbid a 5th) warlock into the group. The primary reasons for this are the debuff limit, the serious problem of mana inefficiency, and aggro issues.

 

The debuff limit - with 16 debuffs is very tough for more than 2 warlocks to be able to use the full compliment of our abilities. Each warlock can throw up 1 primary curse, 1 Corruption, 1 Immolation, and 1 Siphon Life if they are Affliction specced. That occupies half of the available debuff slots as it is, and with the addition of more and more debuffs each patch (Winters Chill and the staple of the new Elementalist Mage build - Fire Vulnerability, and Nightfall being some of the newest additions), every warlock that you add means that you must start curtailing your arsenal or risk knocking off other people's debuffs. This forces warlocks into the inevitable role of spamming Shadowbolt at mobs and bosses for as long as it takes until your debuffs need to be refreshed or you run out of mana. At endgame, warlocks are not debuffers ~ we are shadowmages. Secondly, as our list of debuffs go, only CoE and CoR are worthy enough to demand a raid spot for the warlocks to fill. With sub par shadow DPS from only 2 locks, the need for CoShadows is eliminated. CoTongues is situational at best, and hardly any boss fight allows for CoDoom to proc before it gets knocked off, or trash to live before 60 seconds goes by.

 

Mana inefficiency - Warlocks are probably the least and most mana efficient caster class in WoW. Based upon our class set stats, we have lower mana than any other pure caster class. Our primary offensive spell also costs more mana than our counterparts the mages. Our means of mana 'replenishment' Life Tap is problematic for 3 reasons. First off, it effectively requires us to trade healer mana for our own. While that is not an issue when you are running easier (farmed) content when you are on the cusp of endgame raiding it can be a killer. Any warlock can tell you of countless times when they lifetapped to replenish their mana only to die immediately after due to mob aggro, AOE, or environmental issues like the lava in MC. Or a warlock who has to bandage themselves because of healers being too focused on the MT or too far away to hit them, taking a full 14 seconds every minute just to replenish 2k mana. Secondly, Life Tap just doesn't scale for endgame. The same spell I got at level 56 with my 4.5k mana pool is the same one I'm using at level 60 in my T2/3 6.5k raid buffed mana pool. And to replenish my mana pool today would take over 20 seconds... and then I could empty it again by chain casting in a little over 42 seconds. Lastly, endgame encounters are getting longer and longer. From the Emps 15 minute fight, C'thun's ~12 minute encounter, to Anub'rekhan and Patchwerk's all out DPS fest in Naxx. With the tremendous mana efficiency that mages currently have, they are going strong at the 10 minute mark while warlocks have been idling away anywhere from 33% (Life Tap + someone healing us) to 42% (Life Tap + bandage + consumables) of the time.

 

Aggro issues - Warlocks are currently limited in the amount of damage that they can do directionally proportionate to the amount of aggro that their tanks can generate. Warlocks have only 3 routes to control their aggro. 1) gear such as the 8/8 Nemesis bonus, substandard 6/9 Plagueheart bonus, and Fetish of the Sand Reaver, 2) speccing 30 points down into the Demonology tree, using a specific pet, and reducing your damage by 10% or more, or 3) scaling back their ability to do damage. When mages have the ability to generate 30% less threat in both of their damage dealing trees in low tiered talents that also give them other useful abilities (reduced mana cost or reduced interruptions), why would you ever want to bring along more than the absolute minimum number of warlocks?

 

Solutions

I understand Blizzard's sensitivity to the PvE vs. PvP balance. Any solution that improves PvE inequities and also dramatically impacts PvP realistically won't fly (like the threads asking for an AOE deathcoil that can be spammed every 30 seconds... sigh). To that issue, I have put some serious thought into some solutions to the three problems above that can be used to further define our class role and ensure that all the classes in Azeroth have a purpose and we can truly afford to have a balanced raid without gimping raid productivity. To that end:

 

Debuff Limit:

 

 

    * Expand the debuff limit again. 24 debuff slots minimum would allow another 2 warlocks to the raid group without redundancy.

    * Make our debuffs more meaningful. Change the useless Curse of Weakness from a flat damage reduction of 31 to a percentage reduction of 10% (15% or 20% when Amplified). The mechanics are there (think Shazzrah's self-buff as a debuff). Perhaps split it up as a curse for melee and a curse for magical effects.

    * Allow our DoT's to stack from different warlocks. Curse of Agony, Corruption, Siphon Life, and Immolation should stack so that if 5 warlocks put all 4 up it only takes up 4 debuff slots. This is similar to the Deathwing Talon Hatcher debuffs in the suppression room of BWL.

    * Finalize and roll out the Debuff Priority system so that warlock debuffs aren't pushed off by ruptures, deep wounds, or serpent stings.

 

 

Mana Efficiency:

 

 

    * Make Life Tap scaleable with +damage and +shadow damage gear. If the 8/8 Felheart bonus can decrease the amount of health cost that LT needs to make it's 420 or 504 mana, why can't we get more mana from the same life with +damage gear ("Increases damage and healing done by spells and effects by up to 76")? Make it based upon the 1.5 second global cooldown so that if I have 600 spell damage I will get 677 mana for 420 life or 812 mana with talents. This way it will scale even to level 70 and beyond.

    * Make Dark Pact trainable - and make it scale. Mages and Druids just got core talents that drastically improve their mana efficiency as trainable spells (Evocation and Innervate), why not warlocks? Why not make the universal raid pet, the imp, more than just a fixture that give a passive buff to the members of the warlock's party? Also, Dark Pact has been broken since about 1 month after each warlock hits level 60 because what used to be 15 seconds to replenish 55% of your mana pool is now 15 seconds to replenish a little over 30%. Also, make Dark Pact scale such as: "Drains 12% of your pet's mana and returns 8% of your max mana to the warlock".

    * Make a new rank of Life Tap that increases it by 50% to 100%. This will only be a short term solution however, as gear will continue to scale with new content, and a fixed amount will not.

 

 

 

Aggro Issues:

 

 

    * Add an aggro reduction to the Affliction tree. Change Suppression to affect ALL spells instead of simply Affliction spells and add a 2% or 4% per point aggro reduction component to all damage. This could also be moved down to Shadow Mastery at 4% reduction per point to all shadow damage.

    * Add an aggro reduction to the Destruction tree. Change Devastation to be a 2% or 4% per point aggro reduction component in addition to increased chance to crit. This could also be moved down to the Emberstorm talent at 4% reduction per point to all damage.

    * Ideally, put 2% per point in Suppression, 2% per point in Shadow Master, 2% per point in Devastation, and 2% per point in Emberstorm. That allows someone who is SM/Ruin (the raiding DPS spec) or NF/Conflag a max of 30% aggro reduction - on par with Mages.

 

 

None of these changes should be impossible or even difficult to implement (except for the 24 debuff limit and the debuff prioritization), and not a single one would upset the balance of PvP.

 

Mye sant i det som står der. Tilogmed en blue reply!

[wonnim]

Tilogmed en blue reply!

6467242[/snapback]

 

Jeg tror jeg begynner å se dårlig, finner den faen ikke. Reply'n altså.

[Zippio]

Lurte på noe med end game curses, guildet mitt er snart på nef (chrom igjen) og har bare med ca 2-3 warlocks på raidene nå siden mage's gjør mer skade på grunn av debuff slots, har lest litt rundt og mange bruker CoR istede for CoS siden CoS hjelper bare warlock's.

 

CoR fjerner armor og hjelper dermed rogue's hunter's og warrior's til å gjøre mer skade.

 

litt info:

Info!

 

Eg har tenkt å snakka litt med class leaderen men eg trenger litt mer info fra guilds som har kanskje kommet litt lengre i pve progress slik at eg har noe å vise frem utenom den ene siden.

 

CoS > CoR?

CoS < CoR?

 

Mitt inntrykk etter det eg har lest er at CoR > CoS

 

takker på forhånd for hjelp

[nazrm]

Tilogmed en blue reply!

6467242[/snapback]

 

Jeg tror jeg begynner å se dårlig, finner den faen ikke. Reply'n altså.

6467497[/snapback]

 

Sorry, jeg la ut link til US sidene, der den opprinnelige posten lå..

Her er til EU, og med blue reply: http://forums-en.wow-europe.com/thread.asp...en&t=230139&p=1

 

-.-

[nazrm]

Mye diskusjon om det samme emnet her: http://forums.elitistjerks.com/viewtopic.php?id=7349

 

Ganske interessant :>

[Carl M]

*snip*

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Debuff limits:

Enig der, men mer enn det må skje. Warlock som "debuff" class er en dårlig spøk. - Udefinert rolle i pve, warlock er til mage hva pepsi er til cola.

 

Mana Efficiency:

Ehm, care? Lifetap funker jo fett, er en jævli kul ability. Den skalerer allerede med gear i kraft av at abilities gjør mere damage per mana per damage på gear. Hva skal en forresten med både life tap og dark pact?

 

Aggro Issues:

"Issues" "on par with mages". Woo, yess, wee: Warlock - Shadow Equivalent of Mage! Your bolts are purple instead of blue! En eller annen demonology-aktig aggrowiping ability hadde gjort seg(og muligens noe i retning en brukbar, varig firenuke). Er det umulig å tenke utenfor talents med flate prosenter?

[Marti]

*snip*

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Aggro Issues:

"Issues" "on par with mages". Woo, yess, wee: Warlock - Shadow Equivalent of Mage! Your bolts are purple instead of blue!

6469966[/snapback]

 

Er ikke det sant da xD.

[Chrynarx]

Da har noen venner rerollet horde og jeg ville også være med:D lei alliance! så jeg rollet en UD lock siden jeg syns castinga til UD er så sykt fet, men da lurer jeg hva burde jeg specce? står mye om det i denne tråden men hva er lurest og specce for en som aldri har spilt lock før?

[Dynejonas]

Affliction.

 

5 poeng i improved corruption.

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Dark pact.

[Jørgen Sørheim]

Affliction og/eller Demonology. Destruction gjør seg best når du runder 50 og begynner å få litt gear med +dmg og crit.

 

Selv er jeg en stor fan av Demonic sacrifice, som er 21 poeng ned i Demonology. Med litt stamina-gear og saccet voidwalker, får du rundt 70-100hp hvert 4 sekund, noe som kan brukes til å lifetappe (konvertere helse til mana). Kombinert med Cannibalize og bandasjer, blir det null nedetid. For å holde mobs unna, bruker du fear.

[Carl M]

Fel stamina er en helt genial greie. Både effektivt og morsomt i pve, både solo og i gruppe.

 

Litt morsomt da jeg her en dag smacka opp fullt staminaequipment, fikk nesten full raidbuffing sacca voidwalker, ressa vw med cables, heiv på soul link og fikk en combat rogue i guilden til å prøve å drepe meg.

 

7,5k hp + 225 hp hvert fjerde sekund, -10% damage taken fra master demonologist, -30% damage taken fra soul link, et par-tre-fire% fra ekstra armor, og sacrifice shieldet til voidwalker @ ~2400 damage på slutten.

 

Han blei litt paff da han brente av alt som heter cooldowns og likevel brukte år og dag på å ta meg.

[Jørgen Sørheim]

Du kunne jo også tatt en 0.5 sekunders summon når skjoldet forsvant, soul linket igjen og saccet enda en gang. Og brukt Drain life innimellom.

[Carl M]

Da forsvinner fel stamina, men fel domination for et ekstra skjold hadde gjort seg ja. Og drain life for den saks skyld, men jeg skulle jo ikke sloss tilbake. Og kick hadde gjort kort prosess av den.

[Tbau5]

Ang. mana effektivitet kunne de jo bare buffa hvor mye mana vi får av int og tweaket life tap litt.

 

noe ala 5k mana blir 8k.

[nazrm]

Ang. mana effektivitet kunne de jo bare buffa hvor mye mana vi får av int og tweaket life tap litt.

 

noe ala 5k mana blir 8k.

6472726[/snapback]

 

Haha, må nesten le litt. Får jo aggro som faen om du bruker 5k mana på en boss.. :X Vil heller ha aggro reduksjon og mindre manacost på spells.

[Tbau5]

Ang. mana effektivitet kunne de jo bare buffa hvor mye mana vi får av int og tweaket life tap litt.

 

noe ala 5k mana blir 8k.

6472726[/snapback]

 

Haha, må nesten le litt. Får jo aggro som faen om du bruker 5k mana på en boss.. :X Vil heller ha aggro reduksjon og mindre manacost på spells.

6472757[/snapback]

 

Hvilke bosser tar du da? Må vitterlig innrømmme at den "høyeste" bossen jeg har tatt er broodlord. Men de fleste andre bosser jeg har tatt er det greit mulig å bli oom.

 

Forslaget mitt hadde heller ikke noe med aggro management å gjøre. En større manapool og en litt kraftigere/annerledes life tap. hadde gitt os mer konstant skade i raids.

 

Et eksempel på annerledes life tap er at vi hade fått en lignende spell: converts 400hp to 1500 mana. Med cast tid, rundt 2 sec 2,5. er ikke helt sikker der. Med en større manapool enn det vi har nå kunne dette gitt oss mere mana tilbake per HP, men ikke for fort slik at vi ikke hadde blitt for sterke i raids.

[nazrm]

Mjo, forstår det. Men da er vi også enda mer avhengig av healers for å gjøre damage. (bytter vår helse med deres mana, om du ikke vil bruke potions o.l da)

 

Angående hvilke bosser jeg holder på med så er det bosser i Naxxramas og AQ40. (Går ikke all-out når vi ikke har de under kontroll, da er ikke aggro noe problem, vanligvis)

Casttime på lifetap (eller en lignende spell) hadde bare dratt oss ned på damage listen.

 

Warlocks er ment som en support class, og har høyt manaforbruk og mye aggro fordi de ikke er ment for å gjøre mer damage enn mages/rogues?

 

Discuss

[Carl M]

Jeg skulle helst sett at warlocks blei en durabelig debuffclass. Med mye mer fokus på å virkelig hemme og gjøre livet surt for motstanderen. Til fordel for en del av den direkte damagen vi har nå.

 

Punk 1: Gi oss flere variasjoner av damage/non-damage debuffs, magic - disease - curse - poison. Slik at det ikke er så satans triviellt å fjerne hele suppa.

 

Punk 2: Gjør de forskjellige, cast time/instant, ranged/melee/aura osv.Variasjoner av forskjellige typer ala curse, med mulighet for å utvide antall. Kanskje at det stacker.

 

Punk 3: Gjør det litt morsomt: F.eks å la oss kombinere debuffs på forskjellige måter, hvis vi hiver på den og den fra den og den hovedtypen debuffs blir motstanderen herpa på akkurat det området. - Det og det forsterker hverandre eller gir en tredje effekt.

 

På lik linje med: "Shit en Pala, han dør aldri og healer andre." skulle det vært "Satan! En Warlock, han svekker oss til de grader, se opp."

 

Elns

Endret 11. juli 2006 av Carl M

[wilai]

Hei eg har nettopp fått staven Soul Harvester, og hva kan eg enchanter det med?