Help me understand Janteloven! Complete a quick survey...

[Novae]

Hi, I'm interested in researching Janteloven as it applies in Norway. 

 

Do you have 3 minutes to complete a short survey for my (independent) research?

 

The survey is here: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/2784513/Social

 

Many thanks!

Endret 5. juni 2016 av Novae

[misanthrope]

Done. Good luck!

[Novae]

Many thanks, that is very kind of you!

[jjkoggan]

Hi, I'm interested in researching Janteloven as it applies in Norway.

 

Do you have 3 or 4 minutes to complete a survey for my research?

 

The survey is here: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/2784513/Social

 

Tusen takk!

High school or college project? Are you researching other countries? I am american so i wont fill out the survey, but i have observed Jantelovens influence on norwegian culture for decades.

Interesting stuff!

[Novae]

 

Hi, I'm interested in researching Janteloven as it applies in Norway.

 

Do you have 3 or 4 minutes to complete a survey for my research?

 

The survey is here: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/2784513/Social

 

Tusen takk!

High school or college project? Are you researching other countries? I am american so i wont fill out the survey, but i have observed Jantelovens influence on norwegian culture for decades.

Interesting stuff!

 

 

Hi! A personal project ... "independent research" - I'm relatively new in Norway and the culture fascinates me.

 

It's not a problem that you're not Norwegian - sometimes outside perspectives can be the most insightful, especially when it comes to national culture, because outsiders have a different reference frame.

 

For example, English journalist Michael Booth's light-hearted account of Janteloven (you can read the relevant section as an extract in The Paris Review) provides an interesting perspective.

 

I haven't considered other countries - I'm yet to look over some of the international survey data - but it has occurred to me (and others) that there are similar phenomena in some other egalitarian countries; Australia and New Zealand (among others) have, for example, Tall Poppy Syndrome...

Endret 19. mai 2016 av Novae

[jjkoggan]

 

 

Hi, I'm interested in researching Janteloven as it applies in Norway.

 

Do you have 3 or 4 minutes to complete a survey for my research?

 

The survey is here: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/2784513/Social

 

Tusen takk!

High school or college project? Are you researching other countries? I am american so i wont fill out the survey, but i have observed Jantelovens influence on norwegian culture for decades.

Interesting stuff!

Hi! A personal project ... "independent research" - I'm relatively new in Norway and the culture fascinates me.

 

It's not a problem that you're not Norwegian - sometimes outside perspectives can be the most insightful, especially when it comes to national culture, because outsiders have a different reference frame.

 

For example, English journalist Michael Booth's light-hearted account of Janteloven (you can read the relevant section as an extract in The Paris Review) provides an interesting perspective.

 

I haven't considered other countries - I'm yet to look over some of the international survey data - but it has occurred to me (and others) that there are similar phenomena in some other egalitarian countries; Australia and New Zealand (among others) have, for example, Tall Poppy Syndrome...

Are you aware of Geert Hofstedes cultural research? Norwegians hate his research because Norway scores very high in what he calls a"feminine" dimension. To me, this fits very well with janteloven, but also creates a very cohesive, trusting society

http://geerthofstede.nl/dimensions-of-national-cultures

[Gabri3L]

 

 

 

Hi, I'm interested in researching Janteloven as it applies in Norway.

 

Do you have 3 or 4 minutes to complete a survey for my research?

 

The survey is here: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/2784513/Social

 

Tusen takk!

High school or college project? Are you researching other countries? I am american so i wont fill out the survey, but i have observed Jantelovens influence on norwegian culture for decades.

Interesting stuff!

Hi! A personal project ... "independent research" - I'm relatively new in Norway and the culture fascinates me.

 

It's not a problem that you're not Norwegian - sometimes outside perspectives can be the most insightful, especially when it comes to national culture, because outsiders have a different reference frame.

 

For example, English journalist Michael Booth's light-hearted account of Janteloven (you can read the relevant section as an extract in The Paris Review) provides an interesting perspective.

 

I haven't considered other countries - I'm yet to look over some of the international survey data - but it has occurred to me (and others) that there are similar phenomena in some other egalitarian countries; Australia and New Zealand (among others) have, for example, Tall Poppy Syndrome...

Are you aware of Geert Hofstedes cultural research? Norwegians hate his research because Norway scores very high in what he calls a"feminine" dimension. To me, this fits very well with janteloven, but also creates a very cohesive, trusting society

http://geerthofstede.nl/dimensions-of-national-cultures

 

 

Would Norwegians hate this research if it was correct?

[jjkoggan]

 

 

 

 

Hi, I'm interested in researching Janteloven as it applies in Norway.

 

Do you have 3 or 4 minutes to complete a survey for my research?

 

The survey is here: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/2784513/Social

 

Tusen takk!

High school or college project? Are you researching other countries? I am american so i wont fill out the survey, but i have observed Jantelovens influence on norwegian culture for decades.

Interesting stuff!

Hi! A personal project ... "independent research" - I'm relatively new in Norway and the culture fascinates me.

 

It's not a problem that you're not Norwegian - sometimes outside perspectives can be the most insightful, especially when it comes to national culture, because outsiders have a different reference frame.

 

For example, English journalist Michael Booth's light-hearted account of Janteloven (you can read the relevant section as an extract in The Paris Review) provides an interesting perspective.

 

I haven't considered other countries - I'm yet to look over some of the international survey data - but it has occurred to me (and others) that there are similar phenomena in some other egalitarian countries; Australia and New Zealand (among others) have, for example, Tall Poppy Syndrome...

Are you aware of Geert Hofstedes cultural research? Norwegians hate his research because Norway scores very high in what he calls a"feminine" dimension. To me, this fits very well with janteloven, but also creates a very cohesive, trusting society

http://geerthofstede.nl/dimensions-of-national-cultures

Would Norwegians hate this research if it was correct?

Yes, because it is considered a negative trait, but if they actually fully understood what Hofstede means with the term "feminine", they might agree that it is a very positive trait instead of being hung up on the label

[Gabri3L]

My joke was that if Norwegians have this "feminine" trait, we'd be more likely to understand that it is considered a positive trait and thus agree with the findings. In disagreeing or "hating" these findings, the findings themselves could be said to have been somewhat disproven. Well, in a sense anyway. I don't know what kind of stupid Norwegians you hang around with that don't understand that "feminine" in this context (or probably most others as well) is nothing negative. Are you sure you're not just venting some of you're frustration based on how you perceive Norwegians?

[nebrewfoz]

Hi, I'm interested in researching Janteloven as it applies in Norway. 

 

 

Janteloven does not "apply" in Norway. (Not any more than in other Western countries.)

If it's translated into your language, it probably "applies" to your country too.

 

Janteloven is just a work of literary fiction. (Like the 10 commandments.)

(Or a horoscope - many people find great value in those as well.)

[Novae]

 

 

 

Hi, I'm interested in researching Janteloven as it applies in Norway.

 

Do you have 3 or 4 minutes to complete a survey for my research?

 

The survey is here: http://www.surveygizmo.com/s3/2784513/Social

 

Tusen takk!

High school or college project? Are you researching other countries? I am american so i wont fill out the survey, but i have observed Jantelovens influence on norwegian culture for decades.

Interesting stuff!

Hi! A personal project ... "independent research" - I'm relatively new in Norway and the culture fascinates me.

 

It's not a problem that you're not Norwegian - sometimes outside perspectives can be the most insightful, especially when it comes to national culture, because outsiders have a different reference frame.

 

For example, English journalist Michael Booth's light-hearted account of Janteloven (you can read the relevant section as an extract in The Paris Review) provides an interesting perspective.

 

I haven't considered other countries - I'm yet to look over some of the international survey data - but it has occurred to me (and others) that there are similar phenomena in some other egalitarian countries; Australia and New Zealand (among others) have, for example, Tall Poppy Syndrome...

Are you aware of Geert Hofstedes cultural research? Norwegians hate his research because Norway scores very high in what he calls a"feminine" dimension. To me, this fits very well with janteloven, but also creates a very cohesive, trusting society

http://geerthofstede.nl/dimensions-of-national-cultures

 

 

Hi, thank you for mentioning Hofstede's classification system. I have seen it, but don't know that the masculine-feminine axis is very relevant to Janteloven.

 

The reason I say that is that I come from Australia, which is very masculine compared to Norway's feminine society. Of course, I think it was a very poor choice of labels by Hofstede, which I think would have been better as "Competitive" versus "Co-operative". I noticed the difference straight away, being in a  co-operative society rather rather than one where everyone is always trying to establish social supremacy; I think, though, that this aspect of Norwegian society - the "Co-operative" side, is  more a product of hyggelig than Janteloven.

 

Further, and importantly, Australia is also an egalitarian society like Norway (though not as strong - it is focused on equality of opportunity - what they call "a fair go" rather than Norway's equality of conditions). It has a weaker version of Janteloven called Tall Poppy Syndrome, which is typical of the methods egalitarian societies use to put upstarts back in their place. We have a saying, for example, of someone being "a legend in their own lunchbox" - as if to say that their over-inflated opinion of themselves is not shared by society overall.

 

The big contrast between the two countries, according to Hofstede's system, is in individualism - Australia being perhaps the second most individualistic after the USA, compared to Norway which is much more socialist. I think that is a manifestation of Janteloven (or that Janteloven is a convenient label for that).

Endret 22. mai 2016 av Novae

[Novae]

 

Hi, I'm interested in researching Janteloven as it applies in Norway. 

 

 

Janteloven does not "apply" in Norway. (Not any more than in other Western countries.)

If it's translated into your language, it probably "applies" to your country too.

 

Janteloven is just a work of literary fiction. (Like the 10 commandments.)

(Or a horoscope - many people find great value in those as well.)

 

 

But don't you think it could be a reflection of an underlying cultural phenomenon? Not the cause of it, but a mirror of it. The fact that it is even still in the vernacular suggests it must have resonated with Norwegian society at some point, no?

[nebrewfoz]

Janteloven was "created" more than 80 years ago, at a time when Norway hardly could be described as a feminine society. It described the author's impression of (some) Norwegians back then.

 

Today,Janteloven is mostly used by unpopular people to explain their unpopularity: "They just hate me because I'm successful." (No, we detest you 'cause you're a dick.) Donald Trump would probably have used it - if he'd known about it. (Or understood what it meant.)

[Juleniss1]

Just a small note here, as Janteloven seems to be misunderstood by foreigners that bring it up, and also very often by scandinavians themselves. Janteloven is indeed part of a fictional novel created by danish-norwegian author Aksel Sandemose, but the town of Jante is modeled after his home town Nykøbing (in Denmark). That being said, Sandemose said that Janteloven is more a product of small town/group thinking than where it is located. So even in the more individualistic society in the US you will find a lot of Jantes around.

 

And if it was ever unclear. Sandemose found these traits highly negative.

[L4r5]

Except for small towns I've only really seen the Janteloven in practice by schoolyard bullies.

Yes, this may be a problem in some small towns/villages, but that's it.

[jjkoggan]

Janteloven was "created" more than 80 years ago, at a time when Norway hardly could be described as a feminine society. It described the author's impression of (some) Norwegians back then.

 

Today,Janteloven is mostly used by unpopular people to explain their unpopularity: "They just hate me because I'm successful." (No, we detest you 'cause you're a dick.) Donald Trump would probably have used it - if he'd known about it. (Or understood what it meant.)

Every american child who qualifies as "gifted" receives special education not unlike those children who have learning disabilities. Why don't the brightest norwegian children get special instruction? Does this not reflect a reluctance to allow high performing students to stand out consistent with janteloven?

[Novae]

 

Janteloven was "created" more than 80 years ago, at a time when Norway hardly could be described as a feminine society. It described the author's impression of (some) Norwegians back then.

 

Today,Janteloven is mostly used by unpopular people to explain their unpopularity: "They just hate me because I'm successful." (No, we detest you 'cause you're a dick.) Donald Trump would probably have used it - if he'd known about it. (Or understood what it meant.)

Every american child who qualifies as "gifted" receives special education not unlike those children who have learning disabilities. Why don't the brightest norwegian children get special instruction? Does this not reflect a reluctance to allow high performing students to stand out consistent with janteloven?

 

 

Indeed, that's what Professor Gayle Avant (a retired political scientist from Baylor Univesity in the United States) and Professor Karen Knutsen (Høgskolen i Østfold) suggested back in 1994 about Norway (my emphasis in bold):

 

"Those who have learning problems have the right to receive supportive teaching if they have been found to need it by school psychologists. They may also sue the board of education if it is proved that their special needs were not catered for during primary and secondary school. This attention to difficult pupils is commendable, but unfortunately there are rarely similar programs for stimulating gifted and talented pupils. After all, they mustn't be led to believe that they are "somebodies," or better than others. In principle, Norwegian schools are supposed to give each pupil teaching which meets his or her individual needs. In practice, teachers are forced to mainstream their teaching, aiming at the average students because of a lack of resources and an implicit taboo against dividing pupils into groups according to aptitude."

 

(Avant and Gayle, 1994. UNDERSTANDING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES: Janteloven and Social Conformity in Norway: 456)

 

 

Of course, that was twenty years ago and perhaps a lot has changed in the education system now...

[nebrewfoz]

Every american child who qualifies as "gifted" receives special education not unlike those children who have learning disabilities. Why don't the brightest norwegian children get special instruction? Does this not reflect a reluctance to allow high performing students to stand out consistent with janteloven?

 

 

There is nothing to prevent "gifted children" from receiving special education in Norway - that's entirely up to the parents.

Many private schools cater to children considered "gifted" (by their parents, at least). Perhaps the Norwegian "state system" puts more emphasis on letting the children be children and learn to interact with all sorts of children, smart and dumb alike, and less emphasis on maximizing the "learning output" by each individual child. Who's to say that one is "better" than the other? (And how would you measure it?

 

I find it hard to argue that this is in any way an expression of janteloven.

 

You're more likely to find it in the business sector, where people fight for perks, promotions, bonuses, etc.

It has been said that envy outweighs the sexual drive in Norwegians ...

[nebrewfoz]

 

After all, they mustn't be led to believe that they are "somebodies," or better than others.

 

But does the esteemed scholar provide any evidence for his hypothesis?

 

Even if it's true that "gifted pupils" do not receive special education, it doesn't mean that janteloven is the reason.

A simpler explanation is that they are capable of assimilating the curriculum all by themselves, and so the teachers spend proportionally more time on the struggling pupils than the "gifted ones".

 

'Not paying enough attention to bright pupils' is not the same as 'actively working against bright pupils', which is what janteloven would give you. (Even if it might be perceived that way by the bright pupils, it does not imply intended malice by the teacher/school system.)

 

Maybe all these stereotypes are all just examples of things "we hold to be self-evident"....

It doesn't hurt to ask "But is that really true?" once in a while.

[Try the BBC podcast "More or Less" for some good examples.]

[Novae]

 

 

After all, they mustn't be led to believe that they are "somebodies," or better than others.

 

But does the esteemed scholar provide any evidence for his hypothesis?

 

Even if it's true that "gifted pupils" do not receive special education, it doesn't mean that janteloven is the reason.

A simpler explanation is that they are capable of assimilating the curriculum all by themselves, and so the teachers spend proportionally more time on the struggling pupils than the "gifted ones".

 

'Not paying enough attention to bright pupils' is not the same as 'actively working against bright pupils', which is what janteloven would give you. (Even if it might be perceived that way by the bright pupils, it does not imply intended malice by the teacher/school system.)

 

Maybe all these stereotypes are all just examples of things "we hold to be self-evident"....

It doesn't hurt to ask "But is that really true?" once in a while.

[Try the BBC podcast "More or Less" for some good examples.]

 

 

Indeed, I agree, and the problem with the academic use of the concept of Janteloven is elegantly summarised by Stephen Trotter, who wrote, "It is important to distinguish between critical analysis of the concept, and what is, at best, a „cultivated bluff‟ and common-sense approach. Janteloven is often used as an explanation for attitudes and behaviours without a critical examination of its actual nature." (Trotter, 2015: Breaking the law of Jante, eSharp 23).

 

But in fairness, part of Avant and Knutsen's point is that the Janteloven mindset is "learnt" at school (according to them), and they cite the children's stories by Thorbjørn Egner as an example, before concluding that although "generalizations about cultural differences can be oversimplified and misleading" the concept of Janteloven "is a helpful label for a set of values widely shared in Norway." (keeping in mind, though, that Norway was a little more rural and homogeneous twenty years ago).

 

[More or Less is okay, but I prefer In Our Time... either way, I'm approaching the concept of janteloven objectively and analytically...]

Endret 24. mai 2016 av Novae