Teknologien som sikrer toglinjene til Oslo S er fra 1880-tallet

[ChiaroScuro]

Ikke bare relativt sikrere. Releer er EMP sikre. De er også vesentlig mer robuste mot støy enn halvleder komponenter. Innmari mye gnistring rundt jernbaner.

 

Ellers så beskytter vel ikke EMP sikring (Faradays bur) mot solvind, tror jeg.

 

Denne kommentaren var til G i #17

Endret 15. september 2014 av medlem-304477

[Hvaheterdu]

tenk at norge har fem tusen milliarder oljepenger, mens sverige har ikke noe av det. men dem har bedre veier, tog og flyplasser. tror norge rett og slett tenk før mye på å hjelp andre land, som vi aldri vil få samme hjelp fra.

 

Har du kjørt i Sverige før? (Lengre enn Strømstad) De har IKKE lys på veiene og da hjelper det lite om det er noe bedre. Umulig å kjøre i mørket.

[G]

@Thonord:
Solvind kan gi multiple effekter på ting. Så ikke hold den norske jernbanen klar fra dens effekter.

 

EDIT:

Kortet innlegget litt inn med en spoiler til. Samt jeg legger en lenke ned til et nyere innlegg, som kanskje delvis besvarer noe om faraday-bur:

https://www.diskusjon.no/index.php?showtopic=1628064&page=2&do=findComment&comment=21976109

 

 

Nevnte det med solvind, fordi det tidligere har lagt elektrisitetsnett og telegraflinjer døde:

 

 

November 18, 1882 - The Transit of Venus Storm - It produced a compass bearing deflection of nearly 2 degrees, All telegraphic transactions east of the Mississippi River and north of Washington D.C came to a halt. The Chicago stock market was severely affected all day. A large sunspot was then seen covering an area of more than three thousand millions of square miles. Simultaneously with the appearance of the spot, magnetic disturbances at the observatory in Greenwich increased in frequency and violence, other symptoms were noticed throughout the length of the British Isles. Telegraphic communication was greatly interfered with. The signal bells on many of the railway lines were rung, and some of the operators received shocks from their instruments. Lastly, on November 17, a superb aurora was witnessed, the culminating feature of which was the appearance, at about six o'clock in the evening, of a mysterious beam of greenish light, in shape something like a cigar, and many degrees in length, which rose in the east and crossed the sky at a pace much quicker than but nearly as even as that of sun, moon, or stars, till it set in the west two minutes after its rising. The daily press was burdened with accounts of widespread magnetic disturbance, in some places telegraphic communication was suspended. In Milwaukee the carbons in the electric lamps were lighted, rendered incandescent by currents of electricity flowing on the wires. At other locations, switchboards in telegraph offices were set on fire and sending keys were melted, while electric balls were seen hovering on the telegraph in Nebraska.

September 10, 1898 - The telegraph lines in Chicago were disabled by a 'daytime aurora borealis'. The effects were seen on telegraphs in Omaha, Tennessee, Washington. The shocks produced 280 volts on the lines.

November 1, 1903 - Telegraph systems of Western Union were affected from 2:00AM to afternoon. This was identified as most severe storm since 1888 according to Chief Electrician for WU. Transatlantic cables were also affected. Marconni Wireless Telegraph Company said they were not affected at all. [New York Times, November 2, 1903, p. 7]. Magnetic storm seen in France, Switzerland but not Austria, Italy or Denmark. But Swiss streetcars were disabled when power went out. Aurora seen in Ireland and Scotland. Sir Oliver Lodge and Norman Lockyer attributed the event to sunspots, which were also blamed for unusual wet weather. [New York Times, November 2, 1903 p.1].Aurora borealis puts telegraph companies out of business [New York Times, November 1, 1903, p. 3]. Spots on the sun cause trouble: Strange phenomenon in France and Switzerland [New York Times, November 2, 1903 p.7]. Electric waves sweep the world: Mysterious pulsations of energy rain down from the North Pole. [New York Times, November 1, 1903 p.8]. Electrical disturbances due to spots on the sun [New York Times, November 8, 1903 p. A45]. Aurora borealis paralizes wires [New York Times, November 1, 1903 p. 2]

 

September 25, 1909 - Telegraph lines throughout US were affected. Some wires carried 500 volts of electricity and lit incandescent 'resistance lamps' in telegraph circuits.[New York Times, September 26, 1909, p. 12]. Aurora borealis stops telegraph [New York Times, September 26, 1909, B4]. Magnetic storm grips the earth. [New York Times, September 26, 1909, p.6] . Aurora borealis stops telegraph communication [New York Times, September 26, 1909, p. I7]. Aurora upsets wires:Mysterious electrical storm sweeps two continents [New York Times, September 26, 1909 p.3].

 

August 9, 1917 - Aurora borealis monkies with telegraph lines [Chicago Daily Tribune, August 9, 1917, p. 1]. Earth currents knock out wires [The Washington Post, August 9, 1917, p. 2]

 

March 9, 1918- Telegraph lines from New York to Buffalo were disrupted. Motors providing electricity for the telegraph wires were acting strangely. No one could understand how 'atmospheric electricity' could affect motors. [New York Times, March 9, 1918, p.9].

 

October 2, 1919 - Aurora borealis cripples wires [The New York Times, October 3, 1919 p.3]. Aurora borealis makes spash in our midst [Chicago Daily Tribune, October 2, 1919, p. 1].

 

March 22, 1920 - American Telephone and Telegraph telegraph service disrupted. Atlantic cable traffic reduced from 30 massages per day to one. Aurora seen over New York City.

 

May 13, 1921 - The New York Railroad Storm - The prelude to this particular storm began with a major sunspot sighted on the limb of the sun vast enough to be seen with the naked eye through smoked glass. The spot was 94,000 miles long and 21,000 miles wide and by May 14th was near the center of the sun in prime location to unleash an earth-directed flare. The 3-degree magnetic bearing change among the five worst events recorded ended all communications traffic from the Atlantic Coast to the Mississippi. At 7:04 AM on May 15, the entire signal and switching system of the New York Central Railroad below 125th street was put out of operation, followed by a fire in the control tower at 57th Street and Park Avenue. No one had ever heard of such a thing having happened during the course of an auroral display. The cause of the outage was later ascribed to a 'ground current' that had invaded the electrical system. Railroad officials formally assigned blame for a fire destroyed the Central New England Railroad station, to the aurora. Telegraph Operator Hatch said that he was actually driven away from his telegraph instrument by a flame that enveloped his switchboard and ignited the entire building at a loss of $6,000. Over seas, in Sweden a telephone station was 'burned out', and the storm interfered with telephone, telegraph and cable traffic over most of Europe. Aurora were visible in the Eastern United States, with additional reports from Pasadena California where the aurora reached zenith. [Newspaper Archive]

 

January 26, 1926 - Aurora borealis interrupts wire service throughout country. Phones affected here [The New York Times, January 27, 1926, p. 1]. Observations show aurora has little effect on radio [The New York Times, January 31, 1926, p. XX15]. Aurora turns telegrapher [The Los Angeles Times, January 28, 1926, p.5]. Aurora borealis offers best alibi for the Bulls in stock market [The Washington Post, January 27, 1926, p. 10]. Borealis cavorts on wires [The Los Angeles Times, January 27, 1926, p.6].

 

October 16, 1926 - Magnetic storm swept over Northeastern US and Canada. Stock market transactions between London and New York were slowed down, but were completed by the afternoon. Auroral beams shot towards zenith over New York City. [New York Times, October 16, 1926, p. 11]. Aurora faint in south and west [The New York Times, October 16, 1926, p.11]. Aurora interferes with wires and cables by surcharging earth with electricity [The New York Times, October 16, 1926, p. 11]. Aurora borealis hits Coolidge speach. Engineers explain failure of the radio [ the New York Times, October 17, 1926, p.3]. Aurora paralyzes wires [The Los Angeles Times, October 16, 1926, p. 2].

 

 

April 28, 1937 - "Worst magnetic storm in a hundred years' continued for past 4 days. Magnetic disturbances correlated with large sunspot. Clouds conditions prevented aurora from being seen over eastern US. [New York Times, April 29, 1937, p. 23]. Aurora borealis hits wire services [The New York Times, April 29, 1937, p. 23].

 

January 25, 1938 The Fatima Storm - The Great Aurora was seen over the whole of Europe and as far south as Southern Australia, Sicily, Portugal and across the Atlantic to Bermuda and Southern California. The Japanese invasion of China was the main news on the international front All transatlantic radio communication was interrupted. Crowds in Vienna awaiting the eminent birth of Princess Juliana's baby cheered the aurora as a lucky omen. Fire department of Salzburg was called out to quench what residents thought was their town in flames. So many alarms were rang that the fire department dashed about in all directions, which only served to increase the level of panic among the citizens. This same impression of the aurora also struck Londoners during the January 1938 aurora who also thought their entire city was aflame. In England, a hook-and-ladder brigade was summoned to Windsor Castle to put out a nonexistent fire. In San Diego, forest officials in the town of Descanso about 40 miles east, were routed out of bed on January 22 to respond to reports of 'great fire in the back country'. After making the trip to check things out, all they discovered upon arrival was the crimson aurora borealis in the northern sky, last seen in these areas on February 1888. In Bermuda, many people thought that a ship was on fire at sea. Steamship agents took the precaution of checking with wireless stations to learn if there had been any S.O.S calls. Meanwhile, in Scotland, many of the more superstitious people living in the lowlands 'shook their heads and declared the northern lights always spelled ill-omen for Scotland. The phenomenon also had some side effects. It was responsible for delaying express trains on the Manchester to Sheffield line after electrical disturbance hit the signaling apparatus. Numerous false impressions were aroused among Cannock Chase people. One person thought there was a big fire at a local colliery and phoned the fire brigade. In some quarters it was said the world was coming to an end. Short wave radio sets were interfered with and the teletype system at the local office of the Western Union was started up by the phenomenon. Astronomers in New England said the lights differed from previous auroral displays with such intensity and color and direction of the beams. The immense arches of crimson light with shifting areas of green and blue, radiated from a brilliant Auroral Crown near the zenith instead of appearing as usual in parallel lines. It was also considered to be one of the Fatima Prophesies by Roman Catholics worldwide. [Newspaper Archive]

 

March 25, 1940 The Easter Sunday Storm - On Easter Sunday calls to grandma by millions of people were halted between 10:00 AM and 4:00 PM creating pandemonium at nearly all Western Union offices. [New York Times, March 25, 1940, p. 1]. A telephone cable between Fargo North Dakota and Winnipeg was found with its wires fused together, presumably from the voltage surges. Consolidated Edison of New York also reported 1,500 volt dips in three electrical generators in New York City located in Brooklyn and the Bronx. In Bangor Maine, lightning arresters were burned out as well. The New York Times noted that United Press reported earth currents at 400 Volts in Boston, 450 in Milwaukee, and more than 750 Volts near St. Louis. All tolled, the Associated Press's entire investment of 185,000 miles of leased wires were put out of service. Practically every long-distance telegraph or telephone office in the country was doing repair work in what was considered one of the worst such events in history. AT&T land lines had been badly disrupted by 600 volt surges on wires designed for 48 volts. In the Atlantic Cable between Scotland and Newfoundland, voltages up to 2,600 volts were recorded during the storm. Coast Guard radio stations were blocked, although compasses were not affected. Excessive voltage in the Boston and Kene telegraph lines 'blew fuses'. In several instances fuses were 'blown' and vacuum tubes ran the risk of damage due to these influences. Earth counts toll of sun-spot storm [The New York Times, March 26, p. 18]. Nature's prank upsets the air [The New York Times, March 31, 1940, p. I34]. Sunspot ties up radio and wire service [Los Angeles Times, March 25, 1940, p.1]. Invisible sunspot storm over half of world disrupts cable, telegraph and radio [The Washington Post, March 25, p.1].

 

September 18, 1941 - The Playoffs Storm - This storm had the misfortune of occurring during a home game of the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Pittsburgh Pirates. During the day, baseball fans expected to hear the entire 4:00 PM broadcast on station WUR by Red Barber. With the game tied at 0-0, the station became inaudible for 15 minutes. When it resumed, the Pirates had piled up not just one, but FOUR runs. Within minutes, thousands of Brooklyn fans had pounded the radio station, demanding an explanation for the 'technical difficulties', only to receive the unsatisfactory answer that the sun was to blame. The effects of the 'sunspots' also appeared in the by-now usual problems with transatlantic short-wave communication to Europe, which was out for most of the day. But the sun wasn't quite finished with New York City after the baseball game 'mishap'. The Brooklyn Dodgers went on to face the New York Yankies in the World Series a few weeks later, but lost seven games to four. [New York Times, September 19, 1941, p. 25]. The next day, Sept 19, at 11:45 AM station WAAT was broadcasting some recorded music by Bing Crosby, when a conversation between two men was injected into the music, and rather clearly at that. There was absolutely nothing that the engineers could do about it. The merging of 'programs' was allowed to continue because although it was annoying, the voices were not deemed strong enough to warrant stopping the radio broadcast entirely. Then after a few minutes the mysterious voices vanished, and Crosby's music came through loud and clear again. Had this been the only problem, listeners would not have noticed. But a few minutes after the men's voices ceased, a new pair of voices emerged from Crosby's singing. This time the conversation was far from mild. The topic of their conversation, overheard by millions of listeners, was a blind date, and the discussion was rather 'spicy', by all accounts. Although the cross-talk lasted only a few minutes, it was enough to cause listeners to again pound the stations switchboard demanding to know why such dialog had been permitted during a family listening time. [New York Times, September 20, 1941, p. 19].

 

December 17, 1944 - Spots on sun disrupt phones [Los Angeles Times, December 17, 1944 p. 5].

 

February 3, 1946 - Magnetic storms predicted to 'sweep earth' for next 12 days. It has begun with radio reception problems. Bombay, Lisbon, Cairo, and Singapore report telegraph disturbances. The last serious disruption was sited as March, 1940. [New York Times, February 3, 1946]. Green curtains, sheets and rays seen over New York City. CBS reported that 'sunspots' had caused an almost complete blackout of radio signals for second day. [New York Times, February 8, 1946, p. 18]

 

March 24, 1946 - New York and Canada report seeing aurora and describe it as one of the most spectacular in a decade. Red arches and streamers swept the heavens in the northwest. [New York Times, March 24, 1946 p. 13] Long-range radio disruptions caused air traffic delay over the Atlantic. [New York Times, March 27, 1946 p. 13]

 

July 19, 1947 - Sunspots delay planes [New York Times, July 18, 1947 p.15]

 

February 24, 1956 : The Acheron Submarine Storm - The February 24, 1956 storm produced the most intense cosmic ray blast ever recorded, but was a nonevent so far as any apparent worldwide disruptions were concerned. [New York Times, February 24, 1956 p. 51] The New York Times ran a very short 100-word article on a 'rare aurora' seen in Fairbanks Alaska in the shape of a pure red arc [New York Times, February 26, 1956, p.44]. Later, they announced that 'Suns raging storms photographed [New York Times, February 25, 1956 p. 21] in a lengthier article. The aurora was held responsible for the cause of a full-scale Naval alarm for a British submarine which was thought to have disappeared. The Acheron had been expected to report her position at 5:05 EST while on Arctic patrol. When it failed to do so, emergency rescue preparations were begun and both ships and rescue planes began searching the waters between Iceland and Greenland. The 'missing' submarine turned up four hours later when its transmissions were again picked up. In Boston, Channel 7 TV viewers were treated to broadcasts from Channel 7 in Manchester Vermont while Channel 4 viewers watched a program on the same channel televised from Providence Rhode Island. A bizarre voice over to a love scene being played out on a local TV channel produced the dialog' Smith gave him a left to the jaw and a short right to the stomach....But darling, we love each other so very much...a left hook to the jaw flattened Smith...Kiss me again my sweet" Amazingly a local weatherman was quoted as saying that aurora were caused by sunlight reflecting off of ice crystals high up in the atmosphere, not realizing that he was resurrecting Captain John Rosse's discredited idea now dead for some 120 years.

 

January 25, 1957 - Uranium and aurora blamed in plane crash. [Chicago Daily Tribune, January 25, 1957, p. 7].

 

November 6, 1957 - Radio and TV, Sunspots in high gear. Sound of BBC video fills US homes [New York Times, November 6, 1957 p. 71]

 

February 11, 1958 - Radio blackout cuts US off from the rest of the world. Aurora visible in Los Angeles, Tulsa, Boston, Seattle, Canada and Newfoundland. Voltages in electrical telegraph circuits exceeded 320 volts in Newfoundland. Intense red glow gave way to curtains and shimmering draperies. [New York Times, February 11, 1958, p. 62]. Although not seen over New York, it was so intense over Europe that people wondered about fires and warfare. [New York Times, February 12, 1958, p. 16]. Aurora puts on display in northern skies [Chicago Daily Tribune, February 11, 1958, p. 4]. Skies brilliant in northern lights display [Los Angeles Times, February 11, 1958, p.1]. Aurora borealis again seen here [The Washington Post, February 11, 1958, p. A1].

 

November 13, 1960 - Type 3 solar flare gives North America a rare auroral display. [New York Times, November 14, 1960 p. 14]. Display of northern lights here creates glow [New York Times, November 13, 1960, p. 3]. Solar explosion causes show of northern lights [Chicago Daily Tribune, November 14, 1960, p.1]. Blasts on sun roil earth's radio waves [Chicago Daily Tribune, November 16, 1960, p. 16]. Aurora borealis proves thriller [The Washington Post, November 13, 1960, p. A1]. AUrora borealis lights up D.C. Area; Resultant calls light switchboards [The Washington Post, November 14, 1960, p. A3].

 

 

 

August 2, 1972 - The Space Age Storm - Solar astronomers reported that Active Region 331 had produced three powerful flares during a span of 15 hours. The intensity of these flares, classified as 'X2' were near the limits of the scale used to classify solar flare X-ray power. The next day, the Pioneer 9 spacecraft detected a shock wave from the first of these flares at 11:24 UT accompanied by a sudden change in the solar wind speed from 350 to 585 km/sec. Space weather forecasters at the Space Environment Services Center in Boulder Colorado issued an alert that predicted a major storm would arrive at the earth between August 4. They were not disappointed. Armed with vastly improved technology and scientific ideas, they were able to realize William Ellis's 1882 dream of predicting a solar storm. At 4:00 UT, aurora were seen simultaneously from Illinois to Colorado and the events of this storm were widely reported in major international newspapers. At 22:30 UT AT&T reported a voltage surge of 60 volts on their coaxial telephone cable between Chicago and Nebraska. Another 30 minute shutdown of phone service on Bell's cable link between Plano, Illinois and Cascade, Iowa was also attributed to the storm. Both the Canadian Overseas Telecommunications Corporation and Canadian National Telecommunications reported that the current surges in their lines had damaged components in their system ranging from noise filters to 'carbon blocks' Taxi drivers received orders from distant cities and were forced to turn down lucrative transcontinental fares! Paul Linger of the Denver Zoo said that the disruption of the Earth's magnetic field by the storms would disorient pigeons who depend upon the field for their sense of direction.

 

March 13, 1989 - The Quebec Blackout Storm - Astronomers were busily tracking "Active Region 5395" on the Sun when suddenly it disgorged a massive cloud of superheated gas on March 10, 1989. Three days later, and seemingly unrelated to the solar paroxicism, people around the world saw a spectacular Northern Lights display. Most newspapers that reported this event considered the spectacular aurora to be the most newsworthy aspect of the storm. Seen as far south as Florida and Cuba, the vast majority of people in the Northern Hemisphere had never seen such a spectacle in recent memory. At 2:45 AM on March 13, electrical ground currents created by the magnetic storm found their way into the power grid of the Hydro-Quebec Power Authority. Giant capacitors tried to regulate these currents but failed within a few seconds as automatic protective systems took them off-line one by one. Suddenly, the entire 9,500 megawatt output from Hydro-Quebec's La Grande Hydroelectric Complex found itself without proper regulation. Power swings tripped the supply lines from the 2000 megawatt Churchill Falls generation complex, and 18 seconds later, the entire Quebec power grid collapsed. Six million people were affected as they woke to find no electricity to see them through a cold Quebec wintry night. People were trapped in darkened office buildings and elevators, stumbling around to find their way out. Traffic lights stopped working, Engineers from the major North American power companies were worried too. Some would later conclude that this could easily have been a $6 billion catastrophe affecting most US East Coast cities. All that prevented the cascade from affecting the United States were a few dozen capacitors on the Allegheny Network. [Newspaper Archive]

 

June 6, 1991 - Severe sun storm threatens utilities [New York Times, June 6, 1991, p. A16].

 

July 15, 2001 - The Bastille Day Storm - Solar flare threatens the earth with storm [New York Times, July 16, 2001 p. 21]. Minor damage reported from geomagnetic storm [New York Times, July 17, 2001 p. A17]

 

October 29, 2003 - The Halloween Storm - This Halloween Storm spawned auroras that were seen over most of North America. Extensive satellite problems were reported, including the loss of the $450 million Midori-2 research satellite. Highly publicized in the news media. A huge solar storm has impacted the Earth, just over 19 hours after leaving the sun. This is one of the fastest solar storm in historic times, only beaten by the perfect solar storm in 1859 which spent an estimated 17 hours in transit. A few days later on November 4, 2003 one of the most powerful x-ray flares ever detected, swamped the sensors of dozens of satellites, causing satellite operations anomalies….but no aurora. Originally classified as an X28 flare, it was upgrade to X34 a month later. In all of its fury, it never became a white light flare such as the one observed by Carrington in 1859. Astronauts hid deep within the body of the International Space Station, but still reported radiation effects and ocular 'shooting stars'.

KILDE:
http://www.solarstorms.org/SRefStorms.html

Space experts have long warned that if a truly massive solar storm[/size]

ever hit us — much bigger than the current one — it could knock out power grids across North America, leaving millions of people without electricity for months and causing widespread chaos. A storm that big hit Earth [/size]back in 1859 (though there were no power grids then, just a bunch of telegraph wires that got frazzled), and [/size]we just barely missed getting blasted by a similar-sized solar eruption in 2012.[/size]



These geomagnetic storms don't harm people directly. But they [/size]

can induce ground currents capable of overloading electric grids. They can also interfere with our GPS systems and force airplanes in polar regions to divert flights.[/size]



How much damage could a bigger solar storm do?
This eruption is also a reminder that the sun is capable of some truly enormous flare-ups, and much stronger solar storms in the future could do some serious damage. In a worst-case scenario, a massive solar storm could leave 20 to 40 million people in the Northeast without power, according to a sober assessment last year by Lloyd's of London.

The good news is that we're not totally helpless. As I've detailed [/size]

before, businesses and government agencies have been devising plans to cope with disruptive space weather — from hardening power grids to rerouting flights that might get disrupted by geomagnetic storms. But even so, it's hard to protect against a truly massive storm, and it doesn't help that we're about to lose some key observational satellites.[/size]

So here's a rundown of why solar storms can cause so much trouble, how we might defend against them — and whether a big one might hit us anytime soon:[/size]

If this "coronal mass ejection" hits the Earth's magnetic field in just the right way, it can induce a strong ground current that can travel through power lines, pipelines, and telecom cables.
If those currents are large enough, they can overload electric grids — which is exactly what happened in Quebec in 1989. But a truly severe storm could fry a significant number of high-voltage transformers. Those can often take years to replace, as many weigh up to 400 tons and are custom built, with intricate supply chains. In the meantime, millions of people could go without power.
According to the Lloyd's of London report, the Northeastern United States is one of the places most at risk, thanks to its aging power grid and unique geologic features (see map). Even a storm that knocked out just 20 key transformers would be "extremely concerning." And in a doomsday scenario, 40 million people could go without power indefinitely.
That wouldn't be good. Modern society relies on electricity for a great many things — and we don't do very well without it. One 2004 study by Carnegie Mellon University found, for instance, that a large number of Pittsburgh's services were wildly unprepared for an extended blackout. Half the city would lose water after three days if the city's electrical pumps couldn't be revived. Grocery stores, gas stations and cellphone networks would be knocked out. Most hospitals have backup systems in place, but emergency rooms would be strained if the air conditioning went out during a heat wave.
"The absence of such fundamental services could lead to major and widespread social unrest, riots and theft," the Lloyd's report warned.


How to protect the grid from solar storms
... But there's a limit to how much strategies like those can help. "The one we're really concerned about is extreme space weather, a Carrington-level event," Koza said then. "What would happen in that scenario? I would have to tell you we don't really know."[/size]
In theory, there are technologies that could harden the grid and protect against stronger storms, such as capacitors that can help block the flow of ground currents induced by a geomagnetic event. In Quebec, the Canadian government has spent about $1.2 billion on these technologies since the 1989 blackout.
One downside is that many of these technologies are pricey and could make the current grid somewhat less efficient during normal times. "We've designed our power lines to work efficiently under perfect conditions — long transmission lines, high voltages," Chris Beck of the Electric Infrastructure Security Council told me last year. Unfortunately, those characteristics also make the grid particularly vulnerable to a solar storm. There's a trade-off.
In recent years, the federal government has started paying closer attention to the issue. In 2012, the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission issued an order that would eventually require grid operators to prepare both operational and technological responses to a space weather event. But utility executives think it could take a few years to bolster protection for the grid.

KILDE:

http://www.vox.com/2014/9/12/6140209/the-earths-getting-hit-with-two-modest-solar-storms-next-time-we-may

Endret 15. september 2014 av G

[nessuno]

tl;dr

 

Tidligere hadde ikke alle kabler flettet skjerm rundt seg (jord), inklusiv strømkabler, og heller ikke overspenningsvern. Heller var ikke jordingsfilosofien og medfølgende beregninger/dimensjonering av vern tatt med i bildet.

Og husk at det er ikke slik at det er spenningen som ødelegger - men strømmen. I en vanlig elektrisk antent lighter er det kanskje 5-10 kV piezoelektrisk generator, men den kan ikke drepe noe annet større enn flue pga mikroskopisk strøm og dermed energimendge.

[ojomann]

Typisk norsk. Viktigere å putte alle oljepengene i banken enn å bruke det på f.eks veier, tog og flyplasser.

 

Vet du hvorfor det fremdeles er releer i fly/bil/tog/oljeplattformer produsert i 2014?

Svaret er veldig enkelt: fordi det virker og er pålitelig...

Typisk norsk - å være verdensmester.

[ojomann]

Ikke bare relativt sikrere. Releer er EMP sikre. De er også vesentlig mer robuste mot støy enn halvleder komponenter. Innmari mye gnistring rundt jernbaner.

 

Ellers så beskytter vel ikke EMP sikring (Faradays bur) mot solvind, tror jeg.

 

Denne kommentaren var til G i #17

 

Nei, de er ikke helt EMP-sikre. En kraftig nok puls setter spolen ut av drift, spolen er gjerne en veldig tynn metalltråd.

[skrim]

Lurer på hvordan det er å få Datavirus eller hakket rele standarden der jeg

[flinx]

 

Mye fint håndtverk... Morro med rele´ samlestyringer. Men det der hører hjemme på museum og burde vært erstattet med en logisk styring for lenge siden. Så synd slike dårlige avgjørelser aldri får konsekvenser for de såkalte folkevalgte som skal fordele pengene der de hører hjemme.

 

Det er vel relativt mer EMP-sikkert enn moderne elektronikk. Jeg ville nå også spandert på et moderne fjellanlegg med EMP-sikkerhet i høysete, for å motvirke terror eller påvirkning fra fenomener som solvind.

 

EMP-sikret ja, men dagens anlegg er så utrolig sårbart for terror. Ved å slå ut en eller to av disse sentralene kan man sannsynligvis lamme togtrafikken helt i Norge i mange måneder det vil ta å reparere det. Her trengs det absolutt redundante styringssystemer, og det er enklere å få det til med modern teknologi enn faste kabler.

[ahpadt]

 

Typisk norsk. Viktigere å putte alle oljepengene i banken enn å bruke det på f.eks veier, tog og flyplasser.

Vet du hvorfor det fremdeles er releer i fly/bil/tog/oljeplattformer produsert i 2014?

Svaret er veldig enkelt: fordi det virker og er pålitelig...

Typisk norsk - å være verdensmester.

 

 

Så hvorfor står tog stille i Oslo så ofte da? Det kan hende jeg svarte på et litt mer generelt spørsmål enn bruk av releer, men basert på det jeg har sett og hørt er signalsystemet i Oslo ikke mye å skryte av.

[G]

Fant litt mer om faradaybur. Obs! på en sykt lang avhandling fra en EMP-"spesialist":

 

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/emp-protection.html

 

Faraday-bur er nok kanskje ikke så virkningsfulle ved solvind. Men muligens litt likevel. Problemet er å få jordingen i orden. For ordinær jording er visstnok ikke bra nok til EMP-bruk. En litt for lang jordingskabel kan bli til en antenne som plukker til seg energien fra EMP. Samt at jordsmonnet er vesentlig. Derfor anbefaler EMP-"spesialisten" å bruke stoff rundt jordingsspettet, eller den horsontale jordingsgaten. Navnet på stoffene nevnes i "artikkelen hans".

 

Det står en hel haug om solvind og EMP enten det er atombombe- eller terror-basert. Samt en hel haug om andre emner som er indirekte relatert.

Endret 15. september 2014 av G

[nessuno]

Nei, de er ikke helt EMP-sikre. En kraftig nok puls setter spolen ut av drift, spolen er gjerne en veldig tynn metalltråd.

Først så må denne pulsen forplante seg til kablene selv, som burde absolutt være skjermet og jordet. Så hvis den samme pulsen (puls er kortvarig) forplanter seg på mange releer vil den ikke slå de ut like lett - induktive last brukes i bla.a. frekvenssplittere siden spoler yter ganske mye motstand mot høyfrekvente spenninger - som en puls er. I tillegg for å "koke" en relespole må den varmes opp nok til at den blir faktisk brent. Samme pulsen ville svidd elektronikk for lengst for der er det ren motstand og ingen induktans.

 

Lurer på hvordan det er å få Datavirus eller hakket rele standarden der jeg

På samme måte som du kan hacke en halogenpære. Sett igang og prøv.

Fant litt mer om faradaybur. Obs! på en sykt lang avhandling fra en EMP-"spesialist":

 

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/emp-protection.html

 

Faraday-bur er nok kanskje ikke så virkningsfulle ved solvind. Men muligens litt likevel. Problemet er å få jordingen i orden. For ordinær jording er visstnok ikke bra nok til EMP-bruk. En litt for lang jordingskabel kan bli til en antenne som plukker til seg energien fra EMP. Samt at jordsmonnet er vesentlig. Derfor anbefaler EMP-"spesialisten" å bruke stoff rundt jordingsspettet, eller den horsontale jordingsgaten. Navnet på stoffene nevnes i "artikkelen hans".

 

Det står en hel haug om solvind og EMP enten det er atombombe- eller terror-basert. Samt en hel haug om andre emner som er indirekte relatert.

Da det gjelder elektriske anlegg er det meget lite - eller kanskje ingenting - som er "ukjent" med mindre man vet ikke hva man snakker om. Høyspente trafoer, generatorer etc har noe som heter nullpunktsmotstand (felles "0 volt" fra hver av spolene som utgjør 3 faser) mot jord, spesielt for å unngå at en jordfeil skal foråsake en kolossal kortslutningsstrøm, men allikevel ha nok ledeevne til å lede vekk jordfeil og lynnedslag. Sistnevnte har så stor spenning at motstanden blir så å si ignorert.

Også om anlegget har jordingspunkter i hver ende (kilde og forbruker), hvor mye kablene er utsatt eller avskjermet, lengden og tverssnittet, overspenningsvern, støyfiltre, segresjon fra andre anlegg... mao mange ting vil være avgjørende hvorvidt anlegget kan håndtere EMP.

Korrekt dimensjonerte faraday-bur med korrekt jording kan lede vekk omtrent hva som helst, og å ha releer i den sammenhengen er ikke "den ultimate løsningen" men det ett av komponentene som vil avgjøre hvor kraftig EMP anlegget i sin helhet kan håndtere.

Samme gjelder forsåvidt ioniserende stråling og høyenergipartikler som satelitter og div. romfartselektronikk er utsatt for - det finnes vanlige elektroniske komponenter og det finnes "space rated" som tåler mer. Ikke tåler de all verden heller, men de tåler strålingen mye bedre og har mindre sannsynliget for feil. Man så se på det hele bildet.

[G]

Det der med at en jording oppfører seg som en antenne dersom den blir for lang. Holder den forklaring vann da? EMP-"eksperten" forsøker jo å si at kortest mulig jording er ideellt. Er tilknyttelsen til jord av dårlig kvalitet så øker vel risikoen at lang jordingsledning oppfører seg som antenne framfor å gjøre jobben som god jording. Slik forstod jeg avhandlingen hans.

 

Han snakker også om at EMP-ingeniører ikke "kjøper" testmetodikken med FM-test og AM-test (radio). For de er det kun godt nok å bruke dyrt testutstyr. Og når de forsøker seg på FM-test og AM-test så gjør de det ofte feil også forklarer han. Han forsøker å gi omverden en billig måte å designe EMP-sikkerhet på.

 

http://www.futurescience.com/emp/emp-protection.html

Endret 16. september 2014 av G

[skrim]

Lurer på hvordan det er å få Datavirus eller hakket rele standarden der jeg

Dette var med ironi i tankene

[ChiaroScuro]

 

Ikke bare relativt sikrere. Releer er EMP sikre. De er også vesentlig mer robuste mot støy enn halvleder komponenter. Innmari mye gnistring rundt jernbaner.

 

Ellers så beskytter vel ikke EMP sikring (Faradays bur) mot solvind, tror jeg.

 

Denne kommentaren var til G i #17

Nei, de er ikke helt EMP-sikre. En kraftig nok puls setter spolen ut av drift, spolen er gjerne en veldig tynn metalltråd.

 

Tråden er ikke tynn nok. Pulsen er ikke kraftig nok. Det en EMP ødelegger er diodeovergangen i halvlederkomponenter. (overgangen mellon P og N)

[Snowleopard]

 

 

på kryss og tvers av hele landet.? Sist jeg sjekket utenfor døren så var det ikke jernbaneskinner her.

25 mil til nærmeste jernbane her hos meg og 50 mil til nærmeste jernbane som fører til resten av det norske jernbanenettet uten å dra via det store utland.

 

Forøvrig, teknologien jernbanevognene ruller på, bokstavelig talt, er fra 1600-tallet. Det hele handler om hvor tabolid det går an å formulere noe.

Måtte dobbeltsjekke maps og profilen din, og gjettet riktig på Tromsø ja. Men du har mye kortere vei til jernbanestasjonen da...

 

;-)

 

http://tromsoby.no/sted/tromso_jernbanestasjon

[Simen1]

Hehe, jeg tenkte på den og skrev bevisst jernbane. Klientellet på jernbanestasjonen går ikke akkurat skinnerett for å si det sånn.

[The Walking Dead]

Da er vi fra samme fylke, hadde tyskerne holdt på litt lenger så hadde vi kanskje hatt jernbanen.

 

aber dann hatten wir uns möglicherweise Deutsch sprach

 

Men det er jo nok av skattepenger å ta av, de er jo ikke bare forbeholdt rogaland, vi kan jo fortsette å bygge landet der vi slapp i 70åra.

[mlan]

Morro, dette er jo nesten som og gå inn i en av Televerkets telefonsentraler midt på 70-tallet. Men, det er en veldig sjarmerende lyd i disse releene. Husker lyden en gammel analog telesentral lagde