G Skrevet 26. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 26. juli 2014 (endret) Cred. for en ganske så interessant overskrift til tråden, om ikke annet. Det er mulig at litt imaginær "gud og sønn lulling" kan hjelpe litt, men de kristne mangler psykologens faglige tilnærming. Psykologen skriver ikke ut "lulle-piller", det er det legestanden eller psykiateren som gjør. Endret 26. juli 2014 av G Lenke til kommentar
arne22 Skrevet 27. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 27. juli 2014 (endret) Det skulle vært interessant med noe dokumentasjon på at psykologens faglige hjelp faktisk har noen større positiv effekt. Det hjelper eventuelt lite med "en god faglig tilnæring" hvis den ikke viser seg å fungere i praksis. Hvordan ligger det an med dokumentasjon for faktisk oppnådde behandlingsresultater ? Ellers så er det vel sant nok at det strengt talt er feil å gi psykologene skylden for den medisineringen som skjer i regi av lege/psykiater, selv om disse yrkesgruppene har en tendens til å opptre i fellesskap. De svært negative behandlingsresultatene som det finnes en del eksemepler på, de er jo ellers stort sett knyttet opp en uheldig eller feil medisinering. Edit: Her har vi i alle fall et eksempel på en type psykologisk behandling som ikke ser ut til å ha noen større effekt. http://www.psykologtidsskriftet.no/?seks_id=412942&a=2 Hvis man skulle fastslå i en noe større sammenheng om klinisk psykologlogi i sin alminnelighet har noen større positiv effekt, så måtte man jo gjennomføre undersøkelsen på en noe bredere basis og for eksempel sammenligne med effekten av religiøse miljøer. Edit 2: Her har vi en aviusartikkel med en viss relevans: http://morgenbladet.no/debatt/2013/psykologutdanningens_grunnpilar#.U9S8VfmSySo og en nok en artikkel i fagtidsskriftet: http://www.psykologtidsskriftet.no/?seks_id=363113&a=2 Hvordan vil man argumentere for at det rent kvalitativt er noen større forskjell mellom psykologens "tro" og prestens "tro", og hvorfor det eventuelt skulle være slik at psykologens tro på en eller annen måte har en bedre effekt. Kan denne "bedre effekt" eventuelt dokumenteres ? Endret 27. juli 2014 av arne22 Lenke til kommentar
G Skrevet 27. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 27. juli 2014 (endret) Det skulle vært interessant med noe dokumentasjon på at psykologens faglige hjelp faktisk har noen større positiv effekt. Det hjelper eventuelt lite med "en god faglig tilnæring" hvis den ikke viser seg å fungere i praksis. Er enig med deg i det. Jeg har ikke noe slik statistikk å servere her. Men, fagmiljøet selv mener jo f.eks. at kognitiv terapi er en av tingene som har virkning på flere områder. Også kan det være andre teknikker som har bedre virkning på andre områder. Man, kunne eksempelvis også stillet seg spørsmålet: Er virkningen ønskelig? JA. Normalt så defineres vel ønsket virkning som noe som skal være til hjelp for pasienten.. Kanskje det aller viktigste, er at pasienten får noen å snakke med (egentlig). Sånn sett kan jo en prest og innimellom en god venn være til noe hjelp. Eller en psykolog eller en allmennlege som tar seg tid til annet enn kun kortvarige "hei hvordan det går"-oppfølgning. Fastlegen har plikt, men en veldig travel hverdag. Så der får du kanskje bare 20 minutter per gang. Endret 27. juli 2014 av G Lenke til kommentar
Gjest Bruker-95147 Skrevet 28. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 28. juli 2014 Spør en kompetent psykolog om definisjon på "ego", og mest sannsynlig får du til svar; det har vi ikke blitt enige om enda ... Lenke til kommentar
malmanomar Skrevet 28. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 28. juli 2014 Spør en kompetent psykolog om definisjon på "ego", og mest sannsynlig får du til svar; det har vi ikke blitt enige om enda ... Spør en kristen om bestanddelene i den kristne tro, og du vil mest sannsynlig få forskjellig svar hver eneste gang. Idiotisk å risikere å utsette psykisk ustabile mennesker for slik vilkårlig "behandling"....om ikke målet er å lappe sammen en livsløgn da, og fiske troende for jesusen.... Lenke til kommentar
Gjest Bruker-95147 Skrevet 28. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 28. juli 2014 Og du surrer i vei med uten å en gang forsøke å ta selve poenget .. Har du enda ikke fått med deg at jeg bryr meg ikke om dine personlige fordommer, og ikke er jeg kristen heller. Scroll forbi mine poster, er du snill Lenke til kommentar
malmanomar Skrevet 28. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 28. juli 2014 Og du surrer i vei med uten å en gang forsøke å ta selve poenget .. Har du enda ikke fått med deg at jeg bryr meg ikke om dine personlige fordommer, og ikke er jeg kristen heller. Scroll forbi mine poster, er du snill Scroll forbi mine svar om du ikke er interessert. Svaret jeg gav var totalt relevant for trådens tema. Jeg går ut fra at når du snakker om fordommer så snakker du om FORdommer mot kristendommen? Jeg kan forsikre deg om at jeg har nok erfaring og kunnskap om den destruktive religionen at hva meg angår så snakker vi om ETTERdommer. Lenke til kommentar
cuadro Skrevet 28. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 28. juli 2014 (endret) Spør en kompetent psykolog om definisjon på "ego", og mest sannsynlig får du til svar; det har vi ikke blitt enige om enda ... Nå arbeider ikke en psykolog med å definere begreper satt på konseptuelle ting da vi ikke forstod dem heller. Spør en psykolog hvorfor du har en irrasjonell frykt for ballonger, så vil han gi et kompetent svar til hvordan dere kan finne ut av det sammen, og hvordan du kan komme deg forbi denne frykten. En psykolog vet hvordan noen hendelser ofte beveger mange. Så her arbeider de seg bakover med mange mulige svar, og vitenskapen forblir svært lite nøyaktig. Sjelsbegreper og annet overlates dels til filosofer og nevrologer. Endret 28. juli 2014 av cuadro Lenke til kommentar
arne22 Skrevet 29. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 29. juli 2014 (endret) Et litt uavklart spørsmål som på et vis henger litt i luften, det er jo hva mener man egentlig med "psykiske plager". De spørsmål som de fleste mennesker kanskje bør og vil stille seg flere ganger i løpet av livet: Hvorfor lever jeg? Hva er hensikten med livet, osv, er dette en "psykisk plage"? eller er det bare en del av den normale utviklingen som "folk flest" har behov for å gjennomgå? Er det da en "plage" som gir behov for hjelp av "fagfolk" det at man er ganske "normal"? En noe annen problemstilling, det vil jo være hvis man for eksempel ser "syner", som ikke er der, eller "stammer" som heller ikke er virkelige. Da er man i alle fall over i en type opplevelser som ikke deles av "folk flest". Slik som jeg ser det så vilo det kunne være uheldig i en større sammenheng om man sykeliggjør det som man kan kalla en "normalatferd", og det vil vel kanskje til og med på sikt kunne virke som en grobunn for en sykdom som ikke i utgangspunktet er der. En interessant problemstilling det er jo om psykologer og psykiatere egentlig har noen større kompetanse innenfor dette som man kan kalle for "normalpsykologi" eller det forholder seg slik at kompetansen i større grad er rettet mot de psykiatriske sykdommene? Vil man da for eksempel kunne oppnå noe større posistiv effekt av å behandle en "normal person" som om vedkommende hadde en mental sykdom ? Er en psykolog eller en psykiater spesielt godt utdannet i forhold til filosofifaget og er det slik at man har noen særlige kvalifikasjoner til å rådgi eller å "behandle" i forhold til "eisistensielle spørsmål"? Endret 29. juli 2014 av arne22 Lenke til kommentar
cuadro Skrevet 29. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 29. juli 2014 (endret) Spørsmålsformuleringen din er kunstig og iscenesatt; ingen sykeliggjøres fordi de stiller eksistensielle spørsmål slik som alle andre. Noen sykeliggjøres fordi de med dette i bakhodet bestemmer seg for å avslutte sitt eget liv, og dette er en helt annen sak. Hvorvidt psykologer er best skikket til alle typer samtaler om livet er og blir en kunstig problemstilling, da det tar ingenting vekk fra det at psykologer fremdeles er best skikket til de samtaler som omgår alvorlige psykologiske plager. Endret 29. juli 2014 av cuadro 1 Lenke til kommentar
G Skrevet 30. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 30. juli 2014 Spør en kompetent psykolog om definisjon på "ego", og mest sannsynlig får du til svar; det har vi ikke blitt enige om enda ... Artig. Lenke til kommentar
G Skrevet 30. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 30. juli 2014 (endret) Spør en kompetent psykolog om definisjon på "ego", og mest sannsynlig får du til svar; det har vi ikke blitt enige om enda ... Nå arbeider ikke en psykolog med å definere begreper satt på konseptuelle ting da vi ikke forstod dem heller. Spør en psykolog hvorfor du har en irrasjonell frykt for ballonger, så vil han gi et kompetent svar til hvordan dere kan finne ut av det sammen, og hvordan du kan komme deg forbi denne frykten. En psykolog vet hvordan noen hendelser ofte beveger mange. Så her arbeider de seg bakover med mange mulige svar, og vitenskapen forblir svært lite nøyaktig. Sjelsbegreper og annet overlates dels til filosofer og nevrologer. Så jeg kan spør en nevrolog om sjelelige spørsmål, er det det du sier? hehe Et litt uavklart spørsmål som på et vis henger litt i luften, det er jo hva mener man egentlig med "psykiske plager". De spørsmål som de fleste mennesker kanskje bør og vil stille seg flere ganger i løpet av livet: Hvorfor lever jeg? Hva er hensikten med livet, osv, er dette en "psykisk plage"? eller er det bare en del av den normale utviklingen som "folk flest" har behov for å gjennomgå? Er det da en "plage" som gir behov for hjelp av "fagfolk" det at man er ganske "normal"? ... ... Vil man da for eksempel kunne oppnå noe større posistiv effekt av å behandle en "normal person" som om vedkommende hadde en mental sykdom ? .. Kan man ikke bare forenkle det ned til det enkelte individs opplevelse av plagene. At dersom personen er så sterkt plaget av noe, at dette igjen går utover personens livskvalitet i ganske stor grad, så kan man forsøke å gi personen hjelp. Det er ikke sikkert at det å forsøke å gi hjelp alltid hjelper, men jeg synes ihvertfall at det er verdt å gi det noen forsøk. Endret 30. juli 2014 av G Lenke til kommentar
Gjest Bruker-95147 Skrevet 30. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 30. juli 2014 Spør en kompetent psykolog om definisjon på "ego", og mest sannsynlig får du til svar; det har vi ikke blitt enige om enda ... Nå arbeider ikke en psykolog med å definere begreper satt på konseptuelle ting da vi ikke forstod dem heller. Spør en psykolog hvorfor du har en irrasjonell frykt for ballonger, så vil han gi et kompetent svar til hvordan dere kan finne ut av det sammen, og hvordan du kan komme deg forbi denne frykten. En psykolog vet hvordan noen hendelser ofte beveger mange. Så her arbeider de seg bakover med mange mulige svar, og vitenskapen forblir svært lite nøyaktig. Sjelsbegreper og annet overlates dels til filosofer og nevrologer. Dette er vel og bra, men personlig ville jeg hatt klarhet i hvilket verdisyn vedkommende terapeut har - dette fordi jeg stoler enda mer på den fagpersonen som i tillegg til vanlig utdannelse, også har tatt til seg helt klare og ufravikelige etiske og moralske prinsipper som ligger utenfor eller over vårt ordinære verdisystem Lenke til kommentar
cuadro Skrevet 30. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 30. juli 2014 [..]også har tatt til seg helt klare og ufravikelige etiske og moralske prinsipper som ligger utenfor eller over vårt ordinære verdisystem Jeg har ingen anelse om hva du mener dette er for noe. Lenke til kommentar
Gjest Bruker-95147 Skrevet 30. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 30. juli 2014 (endret) [..]også har tatt til seg helt klare og ufravikelige etiske og moralske prinsipper som ligger utenfor eller over vårt ordinære verdisystem Jeg har ingen anelse om hva du mener dette er for noe. I en materialistisk verden er moral og etikk på salg til enhver tid, mens disse reglene som blir fulgt av munker, har ikke endret seg de siste 2500 år. Jeg stoler mer på disse dedikerte munkene, enn jeg ville stolt på en så kalt "fagperson". edit:la inn litt mer utfyllende info Right Speech samma vaca © 2005 Right Speech is the third of the eight path factors in the Noble Eightfold Path, and belongs to the virtue division of the path. The definition "And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech." — SN 45.8 Five keys to right speech "Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five? "It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will." — AN 5.198 The danger in lying "For the person who transgresses in one thing, I tell you, there is no evil deed that is not to be done. Which one thing? This: telling a deliberate lie." The person who lies, who transgress in this one thing, transcending concern for the world beyond: there's no evil he might not do.— Iti 25 Speak only words that do no harm "One should speak only that word by which one would not torment oneself nor harm others. That word is indeed well spoken. "One should speak only pleasant words, words which are acceptable (to others). What one speaks without bringing evils to others is pleasant." — Thag 21 Self-purification through well-chosen speech "And how is one made pure in four ways by verbal action? "There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come & tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world. "Abandoning divisive speech he abstains from divisive speech. What he has heard here he does not tell there to break those people apart from these people here. What he has heard there he does not tell here to break these people apart from those people there. Thus reconciling those who have broken apart or cementing those who are united, he loves concord, delights in concord, enjoys concord, speaks things that create concord. "Abandoning abusive speech, he abstains from abusive speech. He speaks words that are soothing to the ear, that are affectionate, that go to the heart, that are polite, appealing & pleasing to people at large. "Abandoning idle chatter, he abstains from idle chatter. He speaks in season, speaks what is factual, what is in accordance with the goal, the Dhamma, & the Vinaya. He speaks words worth treasuring, seasonable, reasonable, circumscribed, connected with the goal. "This is how one is made pure in four ways by verbal action." — AN 10.176 Its relation to the other factors of the path "And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong speech as wrong speech, and right speech as right speech. And what is wrong speech? Lying, divisive tale-bearing, abusive speech, & idle chatter. This is wrong speech... "One tries to abandon wrong speech & to enter into right speech: This is one'sright effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong speech & to enter & remain in right speech: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view,right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right speech." — MN 117 The criteria for deciding what is worth saying [1] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial (or: not connected with the goal), unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them. [2] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, unendearing & disagreeable to others, he does not say them. [3] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, but unendearing & disagreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. [4] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be unfactual, untrue, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them. [5] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, unbeneficial, but endearing & agreeable to others, he does not say them. [6] "In the case of words that the Tathagata knows to be factual, true, beneficial, and endearing & agreeable to others, he has a sense of the proper time for saying them. Why is that? Because the Tathagata has sympathy for living beings." — MN 58 Speak only the speech that neither torments self nor does harm to others. That speech is truly well spoken. Speak only endearing speech, speech that is welcomed. Speech when it brings no evil to others is pleasant.— Sn 3.3 Reflect on your speech, before, during, and after speaking [The Buddha speaks to his son, Rahula:] "Whenever you want to perform a verbal act, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal act I want to perform — would it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful verbal act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it would lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it would be an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then any verbal act of that sort is absolutely unfit for you to do. But if on reflection you know that it would not cause affliction... it would be a skillful verbal action with happy consequences, happy results, then any verbal act of that sort is fit for you to do. "While you are performing a verbal act, you should reflect on it: 'This verbal act I am doing — is it leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Is it an unskillful verbal act, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it is leading to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both... you should give it up. But if on reflection you know that it is not... you may continue with it. "Having performed a verbal act, you should reflect on it... If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful verbal act with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful verbal action with happy consequences, happy results, then you should stay mentally refreshed and joyful, training day and night in skillful mental qualities." — MN 61 Kinds of speech to be avoided by contemplatives "Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to talking about lowly topics such as these — talking about kings, robbers, ministers of state; armies, alarms, and battles; food and drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, and scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women and heroes; the gossip of the street and the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity [philosophical discussions of the past and future], the creation of the world and of the sea, and talk of whether things exist or not — he abstains from talking about lowly topics such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue. "Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to debates such as these — 'You understand this doctrine and discipline?I'm the one who understands this doctrine and discipline. How could you understand this doctrine and discipline? You're practicing wrongly. I'm practicing rightly. I'm being consistent. You're not. What should be said first you said last. What should be said last you said first. What you took so long to think out has been refuted. Your doctrine has been overthrown. You're defeated. Go and try to salvage your doctrine; extricate yourself if you can!' — he abstains from debates such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue." — DN 2 "Monks, do not wage wordy warfare, saying: 'You don't understand this Dhamma and discipline, I understand this Dhamma and discipline'; 'How could you understand it? You have fallen into wrong practices: I have the right practice'; 'You have said afterwards what you should have said first, and you have said first what you should have said afterwards'; 'What I say is consistent, what you say isn't'; 'What you have thought out for so long is entirely reversed'; 'Your statement is refuted'; 'You are talking rubbish!'; 'You are in the wrong'; 'Get out of that if you can!' "Why should you not do this? Such talk, monks, is not related to the goal, it is not fundamental to the holy life, does not conduce to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, tranquillity, higher knowledge, enlightenment or to Nibbana. When you have discussions, monks, you should discuss Suffering, the Arising of Suffering, its Cessation, and the Path that leads to its Cessation. Why is that? Because such talk is related to the goal... it conduces to disenchantment... to Nibbana. This is the task you must accomplish." — SN 56.9 Ten wholesome topics of conversation "There are these ten topics of [proper] conversation. Which ten? Talk on modesty, on contentment, on seclusion, on non-entanglement, on arousing persistence, onvirtue, on concentration, on discernment, on release, and on the knowledge & vision of release. These are the ten topics of conversation. If you were to engage repeatedly in these ten topics of conversation, you would outshine even the sun & moon, so mighty, so powerful — to say nothing of the wanderers of other sects." — AN 10.69 How to admonish another skillfully "O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another should do so after investigating five conditions in himself and after establishing five other conditions in himself. What are the five conditions which he should investigate in himself? [1] "Am I one who practices purity in bodily action, flawless and untainted...? [2] "Am I one who practices purity in speech, flawless and untainted...? [3] "Is the heart of goodwill, free from malice, established in me towards fellow-farers in the holy life...? [4] "Am I or am I not one who has heard much, who bears in mind what he has heard, who stores up what he has heard? Those teachings which are good alike in their beginning, middle, and ending, proclaiming perfectly the spirit and the letter of the utterly purified holy life — have such teachings been much heard by me, borne in mind, practiced in speech, pondered in the heart and rightly penetrated by insight...? [5] "Are the Patimokkhas [rules of conduct for monks and nuns] in full thoroughly learned by heart, well-analyzed with thorough knowledge of their meanings, clearly divided sutta by sutta and known in minute detail by me...? "These five conditions must be investigated in himself. "And what other five conditions must be established in himself? [1] "Do I speak at the right time, or not? [2] "Do I speak of facts, or not? [3] "Do I speak gently or harshly? [4] "Do I speak profitable words or not? [5] "Do I speak with a kindly heart, or inwardly malicious? "O bhikkhus, these five conditions are to be investigated in himself and the latter five established in himself by a bhikkhu who desires to admonish another." — AN V (From The Patimokkha, Ñanamoli Thera, trans.) The Ten Precepts dasa-sila © 2005 These training rules are observed by novice monks and nuns. They are derived from theEight Precepts by splitting the precept concerning entertainments into two parts and by adding one rule prohibiting the handling of money. A fully-ordained monk (bhikkhu) observes the 227 rules of the bhikkhu Patimokkha; a fully ordained nun (bhikkhuni) would observe the 311 rules of the bhikkhuni Patimokkha. The Ten Precepts:1. Panatipata veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures. 2. Adinnadana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given. 3. Abrahmacariya veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual activity. 4. Musavada veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech. 5. Suramerayamajja pamadatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness. 6. Vikalabhojana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from eating at the forbidden time (i.e., after noon). 7. Nacca-gita-vadita-visuka-dassana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from dancing,singing, music, going to seeentertainments. 8. Mala-gandha-vilepana-dharana-mandana-vibhusanatthana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from wearing garlands, using perfumes, and beautifying the body with cosmetics. 9. Uccasayana-mahasayana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from lying on a high or luxurious sleeping place. 10. Jatarupa-rajata-patiggahana veramani sikkhapadam samadiyami I undertake the precept to refrain from accepting gold and silver (money). See also: The Five Precepts The Eight Precepts Virtue (sila) Vinaya Pitaka The Patimokkha: The Bhikkhu's Code of Discipline The Khuddakapatha, which contains a number of short stanzas and passages for novices. The Samaññaphala Sutta (DN 2) — The Fruits of the Contemplative Life For a comprehensive look at the bhikkhu Patimokkha, see The Buddhist Monastic Code, Volume I, by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Bhikkhu Pāṭimokkha The Bhikkhus' Code of Discipline translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 2007 Pāṭimokkha Rules: Intro Bhikkhus' Bhikkhunis' Contents Pārājika — Rules entailing expulsion from the Sangha (Defeat) Saṅghādisesa — Rules entailing an initial and subsequent meeting of the Sangha Aniyata — Indefinite rules Nissaggiya Pācittiya — Rules entailing forfeiture and confessionPart One: The Robe-cloth Chapter Part Two: The Silk Chapter Part Three: The Bowl Chapter Pācittiya — Rules entailing confessionPart One: The Lie Chapter Part Two: The Living Plant Chapter Part Three: The Exhortation Chapter Part Four: The Food Chapter Part Five: The Naked Ascetic Chapter Part Six: The Alcoholic Drink Chapter Part Seven: The Animal Chapter Part Eight: The In-accordance-with-the-Rule Chapter Part Nine: The Treasure Chapter Pāṭidesanīya — Rules entailing acknowledgement Sekhiya — Rules of trainingPart One: The 26 Dealing with Proper Behavior Part Two: The 30 Dealing with Food Part Three: The 16 Dealing with Teaching Dhamma Part Four: The 3 Miscellaneous Rules Adhikaraṇa-Samatha — Rules for settling disputes Pārājika: Rules entailing expulsion from the Sangha (Defeat) 1. Should any bhikkhu — participating in the training and livelihood of the bhikkhus, without having renounced the training, without having declared his weakness — engage in sexual intercourse, even with a female animal, he is defeated and no longer in affiliation. 2. Should any bhikkhu, in what is reckoned a theft, take what is not given from an inhabited area or from the wilderness — just as when, in the taking of what is not given, kings arresting the criminal would flog, imprison, or banish him, saying, "You are a robber, you are a fool, you are benighted, you are a thief" — a bhikkhu in the same way taking what is not given also is defeated and no longer in affiliation. 3. Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive a human being of life, or search for an assassin for him, or praise the advantages of death, or incite him to die (saying,): "My good man, what use is this evil, miserable life to you? Death would be better for you than life," or with such an idea in mind, such a purpose in mind, should in various ways praise the advantages of death or incite him to die, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation. 4. Should any bhikkhu, without direct knowledge, claim a superior human state, a truly noble knowledge and vision, as present in himself, saying, "Thus do I know; thus do I see," such that regardless of whether or not he is cross-examined on a later occasion, he — being remorseful and desirous of purification — might say, "Friends, not knowing, I said I know; not seeing, I said I see — vainly, falsely, idly," unless it was from over-estimation, he also is defeated and no longer in affiliation. Saṅghādisesa: Rules entailing an initial and subsequent meeting of the Sangha 1. Intentional emission of semen, except while dreaming, entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 2. Should any bhikkhu, overcome by lust, with altered mind, engage in bodily contact with a woman, or in holding her hand, holding a lock of her hair, or caressing any of her limbs, it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 3. Should any bhikkhu, overcome by lust, with altered mind, address lewd words to a woman in the manner of young men to a young woman alluding to sexual intercourse, it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 4. Should any bhikkhu, overcome by lust, with altered mind, speak in the presence of a woman in praise of ministering to his own sensuality thus: "This, sister, is the foremost ministration, that of ministering to a virtuous, fine-natured follower of the celibate life such as myself with this act" — alluding to sexual intercourse — it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 5. Should any bhikkhu engage in conveying a man's intentions to a woman or a woman's intentions to a man, proposing marriage or paramourage — even if only for a momentary liaison — it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 6. When a bhikkhu is having a hut built from (gains acquired by) his own begging — having no sponsor and destined for himself — he is to have it built to the standard measurement. Here the standard is this: twelve spans, using the sugata span, in length (measuring outside); seven in width, (measuring) inside. Bhikkhus are to be assembled to designate the site. The site the bhikkhus designate should be without disturbances and with adequate space. If the bhikkhu should have a hut built from his own begging on a site with disturbances and without adequate space, or if he should not assemble the bhikkhus to designate the site, or if he should have the standard exceeded, it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 7. When a bhikkhu is having a large dwelling built — having a sponsor and destined for himself — he is to assemble bhikkhus to designate the site. The site the bhikkhus designate should be without disturbances and with adequate space. If the bhikkhu should have a large dwelling built on a site with disturbances and without adequate space, or if he should not assemble the bhikkhus to designate the site, it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 8. Should any bhikkhu — corrupt, aversive, disgruntled — charge a bhikkhu with an unfounded case entailing defeat, (thinking), "Perhaps I may bring about his fall from this celibate life," then regardless of whether or not he is cross-examined on a later occasion, if the issue is unfounded and the bhikkhu confesses his aversion, it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 9. Should any bhikkhu — corrupt, aversive, disgruntled — using as a mere ploy an aspect of an issue that pertains otherwise, charge a bhikkhu with a case entailing defeat, (thinking), "Perhaps I may bring about his fall from this celibate life," then regardless of whether or not he is cross-examined on a later occasion, if the issue pertains otherwise, an aspect used as a mere ploy, and the bhikkhu confesses his aversion, it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 10. Should any bhikkhu agitate for a schism in a united Community, or should he persist in taking up an issue conducive to schism, the bhikkhus are to admonish him thus: "Do not, venerable sir, agitate for a schism in a united Community or persist in taking up an issue conducive to schism. Let the venerable one be reconciled with the Community, for a united Community, on courteous terms, without dispute, with a common recitation, dwells in peace." And should that bhikkhu, thus admonished by the bhikkhus, persist as before, the bhikkhus are to rebuke him up to three times for the sake of relinquishing that. If while being rebuked up to three times he relinquishes that, that is good. If he does not relinquish (that), it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 11. Should bhikkhus — one, two, or three — who are followers and partisans of that bhikkhu, say, "Do not, venerable sirs, admonish that bhikkhu in any way. He is an exponent of the Dhamma. He is an exponent of the Vinaya. He acts with our consent and approval. He knows, he speaks for us, and that is pleasing to us," the bhikkhus are to admonish them thus: "Do not say that, venerable sirs. That bhikkhu is not an exponent of the Dhamma and he is not an exponent of the Vinaya. Do not, venerable sirs, approve of a schism in the Community. Let the venerable ones' (minds) be reconciled with the Community, for a united Community, on courteous terms, without dispute, with a common recitation, dwells in peace." And should those bhikkhus, thus admonished by the bhikkhus, persist as before, the bhikkhus are to rebuke them up to three times for the sake of relinquishing that. If while being rebuked up to three times they relinquish that, that is good. If they do not relinquish (that), it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 12. In case a bhikkhu is by nature difficult to admonish — who, when being legitimately admonished by the bhikkhus with reference to the training rules included in the (Pāṭimokkha) recitation, makes himself unadmonishable, (saying,) "Do not, venerable ones, say anything to me, good or bad; and I won't say anything to the venerable ones, good or bad. Refrain, venerable ones, from admonishing me" — the bhikkhus are to admonish him thus: "Let the venerable one not make himself unadmonishable. Let the venerable one make himself admonishable. Let the venerable one admonish the bhikkhus in accordance with what is right, and the bhikkhus will admonish the venerable one in accordance with what is right; for it is thus that the Blessed One's following is nurtured: through mutual admonition, through mutual rehabilitation." And should that bhikkhu, thus admonished by the bhikkhus, persist as before, the bhikkhus are to rebuke him up to three times for the sake of relinquishing that. If while being rebuked up to three times he relinquishes that, that is good. If he does not relinquish (that), it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. 13. In case a bhikkhu living in dependence on a certain village or town is a corrupter of families, a man of depraved conduct — whose depraved conduct is both seen and heard about, and the families he has corrupted are both seen and heard about — the bhikkhus are to admonish him thus: "You, venerable sir, are a corrupter of families, a man of depraved conduct. Your depraved conduct is both seen and heard about, and the families you have corrupted are both seen and heard about. Leave this monastery, venerable sir. Enough of your staying here." And should that bhikkhu, thus admonished by the bhikkhus, say about the bhikkhus, "The bhikkhus are biased through favoritism, biased through aversion, biased through delusion, biased through fear, in that for this sort of offense they banish some and do not banish others," the bhikkhus are to admonish him thus: "Do not say that, venerable sir. The bhikkhus are not biased through favoritism, are not biased through aversion, are not biased through delusion, are not biased through fear. You, venerable sir, are a corrupter of families, a man of depraved conduct. Your depraved conduct is both seen and heard about, and the families you have corrupted are both seen and heard about. Leave this monastery, venerable sir. Enough of your staying here." And should that bhikkhu, thus admonished by the bhikkhus, persist as before, the bhikkhus are to rebuke him up to three times for the sake of relinquishing that. If while being rebuked up to three times he relinquishes that, that is good. If he does not relinquish (that), it entails initial and subsequent meetings of the Community. Aniyata: Indefinite rules 1. Should any bhikkhu sit in private, alone with a woman on a seat secluded enough to lend itself (to sexual intercourse), so that a female lay follower whose word can be trusted, having seen (them), might describe it as constituting any of three cases — entailing defeat, communal meetings, or confession — then the bhikkhu, acknowledging having sat (there), may be dealt with in line with any of the three cases — entailing defeat, communal meetings, or confession — or he may be dealt with for whichever case the female lay follower whose word can be trusted described. This case is indefinite. 2. In case a seat is not sufficiently secluded to lend itself (to sexual intercourse) but sufficiently so to address lewd words to a woman, should any bhikkhu sit in private, alone with a woman on such a seat, so that a female lay follower whose word can be trusted, having seen (them), might describe it as constituting either of two cases — entailing communal meetings or confession — then the bhikkhu, acknowledging having sat (there), may be dealt with in line with either of the two cases — entailing communal meetings or confession — or he is to be dealt with in line with whichever case the female lay follower whose word can be trusted described. This case too is indefinite. Nissaggiya Pācittiya: Rules entailing forfeiture and confession Part One: The Robe-cloth Chapter 1. When a bhikkhu has finished his robe and the frame is dismantled (his kathina privileges are ended), he is to keep extra robe-cloth ten days at most. Beyond that, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 2. When a bhikkhu has finished his robe and the frame is dismantled (his kathina privileges are ended): If he dwells apart from (any of) his three robes even for one night — unless authorized by the bhikkhus — it is to be forfeited and confessed. 3. When a bhikkhu has finished his robe and the frame is dismantled (his kathina privileges are ended): Should out-of-season robe-cloth accrue to him, he may accept it if he so desires. Having accepted it, he is to make it up immediately (into a cloth requisite). If it should not be enough, he may lay it aside for a month at most when he has an expectation for filling the lack. If he should keep it beyond that, even when he has an expectation (for further cloth), it is to be forfeited and confessed. 4. Should any bhikkhu have a used robe washed, dyed, or beaten by a bhikkhunī unrelated to him, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 5. Should any bhikkhu accept robe-cloth from the hand of a bhikkhunī unrelated to him — except in exchange — it is to be forfeited and confessed. 6. Should any bhikkhu ask for robe-cloth from a man or woman householder unrelated to him, except at the proper occasion, it is to be forfeited and confessed. Here the proper occasion is this: The bhikkhu's robe has been snatched away or destroyed. This is the proper occasion here. 7. If that unrelated man or woman householder presents the bhikkhu with many robes (pieces of robe-cloth), he is to accept at most (enough for) an upper and a lower robe. If he accepts more than that, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 8. In case a man or woman householder unrelated (to the bhikkhu) prepares a robe fund for the sake of a bhikkhu, thinking, "Having purchased a robe with this robe fund, I will clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe": If the bhikkhu, not previously invited, approaching (the householder) should make a stipulation with regard to the robe, saying, "It would be good indeed, sir, if you clothed me (with a robe), having purchased a robe of such-and-such a sort with this robe fund" — out of a desire for something fine — it is to be forfeited and confessed. 9. In case two householders — men or women — unrelated (to the bhikkhu) prepare separate robe funds for the sake of a bhikkhu, thinking, "Having purchased separate robes with these separate robe funds of ours, we will clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with robes": If the bhikkhu, not previously invited, approaching (them) should make a stipulation with regard to the robe, saying, "It would be good indeed, sirs, if you clothed me (with a robe), having purchased a robe of such-and-such a sort with these separate robe funds, the two (funds) together for one (robe)" — out of a desire for something fine — it is to be forfeited and confessed. 10. In case a king, a royal official, a brahman, or a householder sends a robe fund for the sake of a bhikkhu via a messenger, (saying,) "Having purchased a robe with this robe fund, clothe the bhikkhu named so-and-so with a robe": If the messenger, approaching the bhikkhu, should say, "This is a robe fund being delivered for the sake of the venerable one. May the venerable one accept this robe fund," then the bhikkhu is to tell the messenger: "We do not accept robe funds, my friend. We accept robes (robe-cloth) as are proper according to season." If the messenger should say to the bhikkhu, "Does the venerable one have a steward?" then, bhikkhus, if the bhikkhu desires a robe, he may indicate a steward — either a monastery attendant or a lay follower — (saying,) "That, my friend, is the bhikkhus' steward." If the messenger, having instructed the steward and going to the bhikkhu, should say, "I have instructed the steward the venerable one indicated. May the venerable one go (to him) and he will clothe you with a robe in season," then the bhikkhu, desiring a robe and approaching the steward, may prompt and remind him two or three times, "I have need of a robe." Should (the steward) produce the robe after being prompted and reminded two or three times, that is good. If he should not produce the robe, (the bhikkhu) should stand in silence four times, five times, six times at most for that purpose. Should (the steward) produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has stood in silence for the purpose four, five, six times at most, that is good. If he should not produce the robe (at that point), should he then produce the robe after (the bhikkhu) has endeavored further than that, it is to be forfeited and confessed. If he should not produce (the robe), then the bhikkhu himself should go to the place from which the robe fund was brought, or a messenger should be sent (to say), "The robe fund that you, venerable sirs, sent for the sake of the bhikkhu has given no benefit to the bhikkhu at all. May the you be united with what is yours. May what is yours not be lost." This is the proper course here. Part Two: The Silk Chapter 11. Should any bhikkhu have a felt (blanket/rug) made of a mixture containing silk, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 12. Should any bhikkhu have a felt (blanket/rug) made of pure black wool, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 13. When a bhikkhu is having a new felt (blanket/rug) made, two parts of pure black wool are to be incorporated, a third (part) of white, and a fourth of brown. If a bhikkhu should have a new felt (blanket/rug) made without incorporating two parts of pure black wool, a third of white, and a fourth of brown, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 14. When a bhikkhu has had a new felt (blanket/rug) made, he is to keep it for (at least) six years. If after less than six years he should have another new felt (blanket/rug) made, regardless of whether or not he has disposed of the first, then — unless he has been authorized by the bhikkhus — it is to be forfeited and confessed. 15. When a bhikkhu is having a felt sitting rug made, a piece of old felt a sugata span [25 cm.] on each side is to be incorporated for the sake of discoloring it. If, without incorporating a piece of old felt a sugata span on each side, a bhikkhu should have a new felt sitting rug made, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 16. Should wool accrue to a bhikkhu as he is going on a journey, he may accept it if he so desires. Having accepted it, he may carry it by hand — there being no one else to carry it — three leagues [48 km.=30 miles] at most. If he should carry it farther than that, even if there is no one else to carry it, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 17. Should any bhikkhu have wool washed, dyed, or carded by a bhikkhunī unrelated to him, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 18. Should any bhikkhu accept gold and silver, or have it accepted, or consent to its being deposited (near him), it is to be forfeited and confessed. 19. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of monetary exchange, it (the income) is to be forfeited and confessed. 20. Should any bhikkhu engage in various types of trade, it (the article obtained) is to be forfeited and confessed. Part Three: The Bowl Chapter 21. An extra alms bowl may be kept ten days at most. Beyond that, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 22. Should any bhikkhu with an alms bowl having fewer than five mends ask for another new bowl, it is to be forfeited and confessed. The bowl is to be forfeited by the bhikkhu to the company of bhikkhus. That company of bhikkhus' final bowl should be presented to the bhikkhu, (saying,) "This, bhikkhu, is your bowl. It is to be kept until broken." This is the proper course here. 23. There are these tonics to be taken by sick bhikkhus: ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey, sugar/molasses. Having been received, they are to be used from storage seven days at most. Beyond that, they are to be forfeited and confessed. 24. When a month is left to the hot season, a bhikkhu may seek a rains-bathing cloth. When a half-month is left to the hot season, (the cloth) having been made, may be worn. If when more than a month is left to the hot season he should seek a rains-bathing cloth, (or) when more than a half-month is left to the hot season, (the cloth) having been made should be worn, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 25. Should any bhikkhu — having himself given robe-cloth to (another) bhikkhu and then being angered and displeased — snatch it back or have it snatched back, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 26. Should any bhikkhu, having requested thread, have robe-cloth woven by weavers, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 27. In case a man or woman householder unrelated (to the bhikkhu) has robe-cloth woven by weavers for the sake of a bhikkhu, and if the bhikkhu, not previously invited (by the householder), having approached the weavers, should make stipulations with regard to the cloth, saying, "This cloth, friends, is being woven for my sake. Make it long, make it broad, make it tightly woven, well woven, well spread, well scraped, well smoothed, and perhaps I may reward you with a little something"; and should the bhikkhu, having said that, reward them with a little something, even as much as almsfood, it (the cloth) is to be forfeited and confessed. 28. Ten days prior to the third-month Kattika full moon, should robe-cloth offered in urgency accrue to a bhikkhu, he is to accept it if he regards it as offered in urgency. Once he has accepted it, he may keep it throughout the robe season. Beyond that, it is to be forfeited and confessed. 29. There are wilderness lodgings that are considered dubious and risky. A bhikkhu living in such lodgings after having observed the Kattika full moon may keep any one of his three robes in a village if he so desires. Should he have any reason to live apart from the robe, he may do so for six nights at most. If he should live apart from it beyond that — unless authorized by the bhikkhus — it is to be forfeited and confessed. 30. Should any bhikkhu knowingly divert to himself gains that had been allocated for a Community, they are to be forfeited and confessed. Pācittiya: Rules entailing confession Part One: The Lie Chapter 1. A deliberate lie is to be confessed. 2. An insult is to be confessed. 3. Divisive tale-bearing among bhikkhus is to be confessed. 4. Should any bhikkhu have an unordained person recite Dhamma line by line (with him), it is to be confessed. 5. Should any bhikkhu lie down together (in the same dwelling) with an unordained person for more than two or three consecutive nights, it is to be confessed. 6. Should any bhikkhu lie down together (in the same dwelling) with a woman, it is to be confessed. 7. Should any bhikkhu teach more than five or six sentences of Dhamma to a woman, unless a knowledgeable man is present, it is to be confessed. 8. Should any bhikkhu report (his own) superior human state to an unordained person, when it is factual, it is to be confessed. 9. Should any bhikkhu report (another) bhikkhu's serious offense to an unordained person — unless authorized by the bhikkhus — it is to be confessed. 10. Should any bhikkhu dig soil or have it dug, it is to be confessed. Part Two: The Living Plant Chapter 11. The damaging of a living plant is to be confessed. 12. Evasive speech and causing frustration are to be confessed. 13. Criticizing or complaining (about a Community official) is to be confessed. 14. Should any bhikkhu set a bed, bench, mattress, or stool belonging to the Community out in the open — or have it set out — and then on departing neither put it away nor have it put away, or should he go without taking leave, it is to be confessed. 15. Should any bhikkhu set out bedding in a dwelling belonging to the Community — or have it set out — and then on departing neither put it away nor have it put away, or should he go without taking leave, it is to be confessed. 16. Should any bhikkhu knowingly lie down in a dwelling belonging to the Community so as to intrude on a bhikkhu who arrived there first, (thinking), "Whoever finds it confining will go away" — doing it for just that reason and no other — it is to be confessed. 17. Should any bhikkhu, angered and displeased, evict a bhikkhu from a dwelling belonging to the Community — or have him evicted — it is to be confessed. 18. Should any bhikkhu sit or lie down on a bed or bench with detachable legs on an (unplanked) loft in a dwelling belonging to the Community, it is to be confessed. 19. When a bhikkhu is having a large dwelling built, he may supervise two or three layers of facing to plaster the area around the window frame and reinforce the area around the door frame the width of the door opening, while standing where there are no crops to speak of. Should he supervise more than that, even if standing where there are no crops to speak of, it is to be confessed. 20. Should any bhikkhu knowingly pour water containing living beings — or have it poured — on grass or on clay, it is to be confessed. Part Three: The Exhortation Chapter 21. Should any bhikkhu, unauthorized, exhort the bhikkhunīs, it is to be confessed. 22. Should any bhikkhu, even if authorized, exhort the bhikkhunīs after sunset, it is to be confessed. 23. Should any bhikkhu, having gone to the bhikkhunīs' quarters, exhort the bhikkhunīs — except at the proper occasion — it is to be confessed. Here the proper occasion is this: A bhikkhunī is ill. This is the proper occasion here. 24. Should any bhikkhu say that the bhikkhus exhort the bhikkhunīs for the sake of worldly gain, it is to be confessed. 25. Should any bhikkhu give robe-cloth to a bhikkhunī unrelated to him, except in exchange, it is to be confessed. 26. Should any bhikkhu sew a robe or have it sewn for a bhikkhunī unrelated to him, it is to be confessed. 27. Should any bhikkhu, by arrangement, travel together with a bhikkhunī even for the interval between one village and the next, except at the proper occasion, it is to be confessed. Here the proper occasion is this: The road is to be traveled by caravan and is considered dubious and risky. This is the proper occasion here. 28. Should any bhikkhu, by arrangement, get in the same boat with a bhikkhunī going upstream or downstream — except to cross over to the other bank — it is to be confessed. 29. Should any bhikkhu knowingly eat almsfood donated through the prompting of a bhikkhunī, except for food that householders had already intended for him prior (to her prompting), it is to be confessed. 30. Should any bhikkhu sit in private, alone with a bhikkhunī, it is to be confessed. Part Four: The Food Chapter 31. A bhikkhu who is not ill may eat one meal at a public alms center. If he should eat more than that, it is to be confessed. 32. A group meal, except at the proper occasions, is to be confessed. Here the proper occasions are these: a time of illness, a time of giving cloth, a time of making robes, a time of going on a journey, a time of embarking on a boat, a great occasion, a time when the meal is supplied by contemplatives. These are the proper occasions here. 33. An out-of-turn meal, except at the proper occasions, is to be confessed. Here the proper occasions are these: a time of illness, a time of giving cloth, a time of making robes. These are the proper occasions here. 34. In case a bhikkhu arriving at a family residence is presented with cakes or cooked grain-meal, he may accept two or three bowlfuls if he so desires. If he should accept more than that, it is to be confessed. Having accepted the two-or-three bowlfuls and having taken them from there, he is to share them among the bhikkhus. This is the proper course here. 35. Should any bhikkhu, having eaten and turned down an offer (of further food), chew or consume staple or non-staple food that is not leftover, it is to be confessed. 36. Should any bhikkhu, knowingly and wishing to find fault, present staple or non-staple food he has brought to a bhikkhu who has eaten and turned down an offer (of further food), saying, "Here, bhikkhu, chew or consume this" — when it has been eaten, it is to be confessed. 37. Should any bhikkhu chew or consume staple or non-staple food at the wrong time, it is to be confessed. 38. Should any bhikkhu chew or consume stored-up staple or non-staple food, it is to be confessed. 39. There are these finer staple foods: ghee, fresh butter, oil, honey, sugar/molasses, fish, meat, milk, and curds. Should any bhikkhu who is not ill, having requested finer staple foods such as these for his own sake, then consume them, it is to be confessed. 40. Should any bhikkhu take into his mouth an edible that has not been given — except for water and tooth-cleaning sticks — it is to be confessed. Part Five: The Naked Ascetic Chapter 41. Should any bhikkhu give staple or non-staple food with his own hand to a naked ascetic, a male wanderer, or a female wanderer, it is to be confessed. 42. Should any bhikkhu say to a bhikkhu, "Come, my friend, let's enter the village or town for alms," and then — whether or not he has had (food) given to him — dismiss him, saying, "Go away, my friend. I don't like sitting or talking with you. I prefer sitting or talking alone" — doing it for that reason and no other — it is to be confessed. 43. Should any bhikkhu sit intruding on a family "with its meal," it is to be confessed. 44. Should any bhikkhu sit in private on a secluded seat with a woman, it is to be confessed. 45. Should any bhikkhu sit in private, alone with a woman, it is to be confessed. 46. Should any bhikkhu, being invited for a meal and without taking leave of an available bhikkhu, go calling on families before or after the meal, except at the proper occasions, it is to be confessed. Here the proper occasions are these: a time of giving cloth, a time of making robes. These are the proper occasions here. 47. A bhikkhu who is not ill may accept (make use of) a four-month invitation to ask for requisites. If he should accept (make use of) it beyond that — unless the invitation is renewed or is permanent — it is to be confessed. 48. Should any bhikkhu go to see an army on active duty, unless there is a suitable reason, it is to be confessed. 49. There being some reason or another for a bhikkhu to go to an army, he may stay two or three (consecutive) nights with the army. If he should stay beyond that, it is to be confessed. 50. If a bhikkhu staying two or three nights with an army should go to a battlefield, a roll call, the troops in battle formation, or to see a review of the (battle) units, it is to be confessed. Part Six: The Alcoholic Drink Chapter 51. The drinking of alcohol or fermented liquor is to be confessed. 52. Tickling with the fingers is to be confessed. 53. The act of playing in the water is to be confessed. 54. Disrespect is to be confessed. 55. Should any bhikkhu try to frighten another bhikkhu, it is to be confessed. 56. Should any bhikkhu who is not ill, seeking to warm himself, kindle a fire or have one kindled — unless there is a suitable reason — it is to be confessed. 57. Should any bhikkhu bathe at intervals of less than half a month, except at the proper occasions, it is to be confessed. Here the proper occasions are these: the last month and a half of the hot season, the first month of the rains, these two and a half months being a time of heat, a time of fever; (also) a time of illness; a time of work; a time of going on a journey; a time of wind or rain. These are the proper occasions here. 58. When a bhikkhu receives a new robe, any one of three means of discoloring it is to be applied: green, brown, or black. If a bhikkhu should make use of a new robe without applying any of the three means of discoloring it, it is to be confessed. 59. Should any bhikkhu, having himself placed robe-cloth under shared ownership (vikappana) with a bhikkhu, a bhikkhunī, a female trainee, a male novice, or a female novice, then make use of the cloth without the shared ownership's being rescinded, it is to be confessed. 60. Should any bhikkhu hide (another) bhikkhu's bowl, robe, sitting cloth, needle box, or belt — or have it hidden — even as a joke, it is to be confessed. Part Seven: The Animal Chapter 61. Should any bhikkhu intentionally deprive an animal of life, it is to be confessed. 62. Should any bhikkhu knowingly make use of water containing living, it is to be confessed. 63. Should any bhikkhu knowingly agitate for the reviving of an issue that has been rightfully dealt with, it is to be confessed. 64. Should any bhikkhu knowingly conceal (another) bhikkhu's serious offense, it is to be confessed. 65. Should any bhikkhu knowingly give full Acceptance (ordination) to an individual less than twenty years old, the individual is not accepted and the bhikkhus are blameworthy; and as for him (the preceptor), it is to be confessed. 66. Should any bhikkhu knowingly and by arrangement travel together with a caravan of thieves, even for the interval between one village and the next, it is to be confessed. 67. Should any bhikkhu, by arrangement, travel together with a woman, even for the interval between one village and the next, it is to be confessed. 68. Should any bhikkhu say the following: "As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, those acts the Blessed One says are obstructive, when engaged in are not genuine obstructions," the bhikkhus are to admonish him thus: "Do not say that, venerable sir. Do not misrepresent the Blessed One, for it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One would not say anything like that. In many ways, friend, the Blessed One has described obstructive acts, and when engaged in they are genuine obstructions." And should that bhikkhu, thus admonished by the bhikkhus, persist as before, the bhikkhus are to rebuke him up to three times for the sake of relinquishing that. If while being rebuked up to three times he relinquishes that, that is good. If he does not relinquish (that), it is to be confessed. 69. Should any bhikkhu knowingly commune, affiliate, or lie down in the same dwelling with a bhikkhu professing such a view who has not acted in compliance with the rule, who has not abandoned that view, it is to be confessed. 70. And if a novice should say the following: "As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, those acts the Blessed One says are obstructive, when engaged in are not genuine obstructions," the bhikkhus are to admonish him thus: "Do not say that, friend novice. Do not misrepresent the Blessed One, for it is not good to misrepresent the Blessed One. The Blessed One would not say anything like that. In many ways, friend, the Blessed One has described obstructive acts, and when engaged in they are genuine obstructions." And should that novice, thus admonished by the bhikkhus, persist as before, the bhikkhus are to admonish him thus: "From this day forth, friend novice, you are not to claim the Blessed One as your teacher, nor are you even to have the opportunity the other novices get — that of sharing dwellings two or three nights with the bhikkhus. Away with you! Get lost!" Should any bhikkhu knowingly befriend, receive services from, commune with, or lie down in the same dwelling with a novice thus expelled, it is to be confessed. Part Eight: The In-accordance-with-the-Rule Chapter 71. Should any bhikkhu, admonished by the bhikkhus in accordance with a rule, say, "Friends, I will not train myself under this training rule until I have put questions about it to another bhikkhu, competent and learned in the discipline," it is to be confessed. Bhikkhus, a bhikkhu in training should understand, should ask, should ponder. This is the proper course here. 72. Should any bhikkhu, when the Pāṭimokkha is being recited, say, "Why are these lesser and minor training rules recited when they lead only to anxiety, bother, and confusion?" the criticism of the training rules is to be confessed. 73. Should any bhikkhu, when the Pāṭimokkha is being recited every half-month, say, "Just now have I learned that this case, too, is handed down in the Pāṭimokkha, is included in the Pāṭimokkha, and comes up for recitation every half-month"; and if the bhikkhus should know, "That bhikkhu has already sat through two or three recitations of the Pāṭimokkha, if not more," the bhikkhu is not exempted for being ignorant. Whatever the offense he has committed, he is to be dealt with in accordance with the rule; and in addition, his deceit is to be exposed: "It is no gain for you, friend, it is ill-done, that when the Pāṭimokkha is being recited, you do not pay attention, properly taking it to heart." As for the deception (§), it is to be confessed. 74. Should any bhikkhu, angered and displeased, give a blow to (another) bhikkhu, it is to be confessed. 75. Should any bhikkhu, angered and displeased, raise the palm of his hand against (another) bhikkhu, it is to be confessed. 76. Should any bhikkhu charge a bhikkhu with an unfounded saṇghadisesa (offense), it is to be confessed. 77. Should any bhikkhu intentionally provoke anxiety in (another) bhikkhu, (thinking,) "This way, even for just a moment, he will have no peace" — doing it for just that reason and no other — it is to be confessed. 78. Should any bhikkhu stand eavesdropping on bhikkhus when they are arguing, quarreling, and disputing, thinking, "I will overhear what they say" — doing it for just that reason and no other — it is to be confessed. 79. Should any bhikkhu, having given consent (by proxy) to a transaction carried out in accordance with the rule, later complain (about the act), it is to be confessed. 80. Should any bhikkhu, when deliberation is being carried on in the Community, get up from his seat and leave without having given consent, it is to be confessed. 81. Should any bhikkhu, (acting as part of) a united Community, give robe-cloth (to an individual bhikkhu) and later complain, "The bhikkhus allocate the Community's gains according to friendship," it is to be confessed. 82. Should any bhikkhu knowingly divert to an individual gains that had been allocated for a Community, it is to be confessed. Part Nine: The Treasure Chapter 83. Should any bhikkhu, unannounced beforehand, cross the threshold of a consecrated noble king's (sleeping chamber) from which the king has not left, from which the valuable (the queen) has not withdrawn, it is to be confessed. 84. Should any bhikkhu pick up or have (someone) pick up a valuable or what is considered a valuable, except in a monastery or in a dwelling, it is to be confessed. But when a bhikkhu has picked up or had (someone) pick up a valuable or what is considered a valuable (left) in a monastery or in a dwelling, he is to keep it, (thinking,) "Whoever it belongs to will (come and) fetch it." This is the proper course here. 85. Should any bhikkhu, without taking leave of an available bhikkhu, enter a village at the wrong time — unless there is a suitable emergency — it is to be confessed. 86. Should any bhikkhu have a needle box made of bone, ivory, or horn, it is to be broken and confessed. 87. When a bhikkhu is having a new bed or bench made, it is to have legs (at most) eight fingerbreadths long — using sugata fingerbreadths — not counting the lower edge of the frame. In excess of that it is to be cut down and confessed. 88. Should any bhikkhu have a bed or bench upholstered, it (the upholstery) is to be torn off and confessed. 89. When a bhikkhu is having a sitting cloth made, it is to be made to the standard measurement. Here the standard is this: two spans — using the sugata span — in length, one and a half spans in width, the border a span. In excess of that, it is to be cut down and confessed. 90. When a bhikkhu is having a skin-eruption covering cloth made, it is to be made to the standard measurement. Here the standard is this: four spans — using the sugata span — in length, two spans in width. In excess of that, it is to be cut down and confessed. 91. When a bhikkhu is having a rains-bathing cloth made, it is to be made to the standard measurement. Here the standard is this: six spans — using the sugata span — in length, two and a half spans in width. In excess of that, it is to be cut down and confessed. 92. Should any bhikkhu have a robe made the measurement of the sugata robe or larger, it is to be cut down and confessed. Here, the measurement of the Sugata's sugata robe is this: nine spans — using the sugata span — in length, six spans in width. This is the measurement of the Sugata's sugata robe. Pāṭidesanīya: Rules entailing acknowledgement 1. Should any bhikkhu chew or consume staple or non-staple food, having received it with his own hand from the hand of an unrelated bhikkhunī in an inhabited area, he is to acknowledge it: "Friends, I have committed a blameworthy, unsuitable act that ought to be acknowledged. I acknowledge it." 2. In case bhikkhus, being invited, are eating in family residences, and if a bhikkhunī is standing there as though giving directions, (saying,) "Give curry here, give rice here," then the bhikkhus are to dismiss her: "Go away, sister, while the bhikkhus are eating." If not one of the bhikkhus should speak to dismiss her, "Go away, sister, while the bhikkhus are eating," the bhikkhus are to acknowledge it: "Friends, we have committed a blameworthy, unsuitable act that ought to be acknowledged. We acknowledge it." 3. There are families designated as in training. Should any bhikkhu, not being ill, uninvited beforehand, chew or consume staple or non-staple food, having received it himself at the residences of families designated as in training, he is to acknowledge it: "Friends, I have committed a blameworthy, unsuitable act that ought to be acknowledged. I acknowledge it." 4. There are wilderness lodgings that are considered dubious and risky. Should any bhikkhu, not being ill, living in such lodgings, chew or consume (a gift of) staple or non-staple food that was unannounced beforehand, having received it with his own hand in the lodging, he is to acknowledge it: "Friends, I have committed a blameworthy, unsuitable act that ought to be acknowledged. I acknowledge it." Sekhiya: Rules of training Part One: The 26 Dealing with Proper Behavior 1. [2.] I will wear the lower robe [upper robe] wrapped around (me): a training to be observed. 3. [4.] I will go [sit] well-covered in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 5. [6.] I will go [sit] well-restrained in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 7. [8.] I will go [sit] with eyes lowered in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 9. [10.] I will not go [sit] with robes hitched up in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 11. [12.] I will not go [sit] laughing loudly in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 13. [14.] I will go [sit] (speaking) with a lowered voice in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 15. [16.] I will not go [sit] swinging my body in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 17. [18.] I will not go [sit] swinging my arms in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 19. [20.] I will not go [sit] swinging my head in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 21. [22.] I will not go [sit] with arms akimbo in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 23. [24.] I will not go [sit] with my head covered in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 25. I will not go tiptoeing or walking just on the heels in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. 26. I will not sit clasping the knees in inhabited areas: a training to be observed. Part Two: The 30 Dealing with Food 27. I will receive almsfood appreciatively: a training to be observed. 28. I will receive almsfood with attention focused on the bowl: a training to be observed. 29. I will receive almsfood with bean curry in proper proportion: a training to be observed. 30. I will receive almsfood level with the edge (of the bowl): a training to be observed. 31. I will eat almsfood appreciatively: a training to be observed. 32. I will eat almsfood with attention focused on the bowl: a training to be observed. 33. I will eat almsfood methodically: a training to be observed. 34. I will eat almsfood with bean curry in proper proportion: a training to be observed. 35. I will not eat almsfood taking mouthfuls from a heap: a training to be observed. 36. I will not hide bean curry and foods with rice out of a desire to get more: a training to be observed. 37. Not being ill, I will not eat rice or bean curry that I have requested for my own sake: a training to be observed. 38. I will not look at another's bowl intent on finding fault: a training to be observed. 39. I will not take an extra-large mouthful: a training to be observed. 40. I will make a rounded mouthful: a training to be observed. 41. I will not open the mouth when the mouthful has yet to be brought to it: a training to be observed. 42. I will not insert the whole hand into the mouth while eating: a training to be observed. 43. I will not speak with the mouth full of food: a training to be observed. 44. I will not eat from lifted balls of food: a training to be observed. 45. I will not eat nibbling at mouthfuls of food: a training to be observed. 46. I will not eat stuffing out the cheeks: a training to be observed. 47. I will not eat shaking (food off) the hand: a training to be observed. 48. I will not eat scattering lumps of rice about: a training to be observed. 49. I will not eat sticking out the tongue: a training to be observed. 50. I will not eat smacking the lips: a training to be observed. 51. I will not eat making a slurping noise: a training to be observed. 52. I will not eat licking the hands: a training to be observed. 53. I will not eat licking the bowl: a training to be observed. 54. I will not eat licking the lips: a training to be observed. 55. I will not accept a water vessel with a hand soiled by food: a training to be observed. 56. I will not, in an inhabited area, throw away bowl-rinsing water that has grains of rice in it: a training to be observed. Part Three: The 16 Dealing with Teaching Dhamma 57. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with an umbrella in his hand who is not ill: a training to be observed. 58. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a staff in his hand who is not ill: a training to be observed. 59. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a knife in his hand who is not ill: a training to be observed. 60. I will not teach Dhamma to a person with a weapon in his hand who is not ill: a training to be observed. 61. [62.] I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing non-leather [leather] footwear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 63. I will not teach Dhamma to a person in a vehicle who is not ill: a training to be observed. 64. I will not teach Dhamma to a person lying down who is not ill: a training to be observed. 65. I will not teach Dhamma to a person who sits clasping his knees and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 66. I will not teach Dhamma to a person wearing headgear who is not ill: a training to be observed. 67. I will not teach Dhamma to a person whose head is covered (with a robe or scarf) and who is not ill: a training to be observed. 68. Sitting on the ground, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting on a seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 69. Sitting on a low seat, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting on a high seat who is not ill: a training to be observed. 70. Standing, I will not teach Dhamma to a person sitting who is not ill: a training to be observed. 71. Walking behind, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking ahead who is not ill: a training to be observed. 72. Walking beside a path, I will not teach Dhamma to a person walking on the path who is not ill: a training to be observed. Part Four: The 3 Miscellaneous Rules 73. Not being ill, I will not defecate or urinate while standing: a training to be observed. 74. Not being ill, I will not defecate, urinate, or spit on living crops: a training to be observed. 75. Not being ill, I will not defecate, urinate, or spit in water: a training to be observed. Adhikaraṇa-Samatha: Rules for settling disputes 1. A face-to-face verdict should be given. This means that the formal act settling the issue must be carried out in the presence of the Community, in the presence of the individuals, and in the presence of the Dhamma and Vinaya. 2. A verdict of mindfulness may be given. This is the verdict of innocence given in an accusation, based on the fact that the accused remembers fully that he did not commit the offense in question. 3. A verdict of past insanity may be given. This is another verdict of innocence given in an accusation, based on the fact that the accused was out of his mind when he committed the offense in question and so is absolved of any responsibility for it. 4. Acting in accordance with what is admitted. This refers to the ordinary confession of offenses, where no formal interrogation is involved. The confession is valid only if in accord with the facts, e.g., a bhikkhu actually commits a pācittiya offense and then confesses it as such, and not as a stronger or lesser offense. If he were to confess it as a dukkata or a saṅghādisesa, that would be invalid. 5. Acting in accordance with the majority. This refers to cases in which bhikkhus are unable to settle a dispute unanimously, even after all the proper procedures are followed, and — in the words of the Canon — are "wounding one another with weapons of the tongue." In cases such as these, decisions can be made by majority vote. 6. Acting for his (the accused's) further punishment. This refers to cases where a bhikkhu admits to having committed the offense in question only after being formally interrogated about it. He is then to be reproved for his actions, made to remember the offense, and to confess it. After that the Community imposes the further punishment of a Community transaction that requires him to forfeit a long list of his normal rights as a bhikkhu for a period of time until they are satisfied that he has taken the lesson to heart. 7. Covering over as with grass. This refers to situations in which both sides of a dispute realize that, in the course of their dispute, they have done much that is unworthy of a contemplative. If they were to deal with one another for their offenses, the only result would be greater divisiveness. Thus if both sides agree, all the bhikkhus gather in one place. (According to the Commentary, this means that all bhikkhus in the sima must attend. No one should send his consent, and even sick bhikkhus must go.) A motion is made to the entire group that this procedure will be followed. One member of each side then makes a formal motion to the members of his faction that he will make a confession for them. When both sides are ready, the representative of each side addresses the entire group and makes the blanket confession, using the form of a motion and one announcement (natti-dutiya-kamma). Endret 30. juli 2014 av Bruker-95147 Lenke til kommentar
cuadro Skrevet 30. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 30. juli 2014 (endret) [..]også har tatt til seg helt klare og ufravikelige etiske og moralske prinsipper som ligger utenfor eller over vårt ordinære verdisystem Jeg har ingen anelse om hva du mener dette er for noe. I en materialistisk verden er moral og etikk på salg til enhver tid, mens disse reglene som blir fulgt av munker, har ikke endret seg de siste 2500 år. Jeg stoler mer på disse dedikerte munkene, enn jeg ville stolt på en så kalt "fagperson". Da er du isåfall helt urimelig. At et moralsyn ikke har endret seg over lang tid, tyder ikke på riktighet eller på at synet er velfundert. Ikke er det helt direkte relevant for tråden heller. Endret 30. juli 2014 av cuadro Lenke til kommentar
Gjest Bruker-95147 Skrevet 31. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 31. juli 2014 Da er du isåfall helt urimelig. Ikke er det helt direkte relevant for tråden heller. Hva er det konkret du mener er urimelig og irrelevant? At et moralsyn ikke har endret seg over lang tid, tyder ikke på riktighet eller på at synet er velfundert. Det behøver ikke nødvendigvis bety at det er "best", korrekt nok, men måten det etterleves og benyttes på gir en større trygghet for "behandler" og "pasienten", etter min kjennskap og erfaring med begge "fagmiljøer". Lenke til kommentar
cuadro Skrevet 31. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 31. juli 2014 (endret) Det er helt urimelig å mene at den beste hjelper må ha det livssyn du søker. Det er også irrelevant hvorvidt du har en personlig mening om hvilken moralkodeks som er bedre, eller etterleves bedre, da spørsmålet som er på agendaen er hva som hjelper best. Da benytter man statistikk og vitenskap. Mao. virker det like greit om vi ser bort ifra dine erfaringer. Endret 31. juli 2014 av cuadro Lenke til kommentar
Gjest Bruker-95147 Skrevet 31. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 31. juli 2014 Det er helt urimelig å mene at den beste hjelper må ha det livssyn du søker. Hvis jeg har skrevet det, er det en kjedelig glipp - hvis jeg ikke har skrevet det, er det hos deg det glapp Det er også irrelevant hvorvidt du har en personlig mening om hvilken moralkodeks som er bedre, eller etterleves bedre, da spørsmålet som er på agendaen er hva som hjelper best. Da benytter man statistikk og vitenskap. Jeg er på ingen måte enig i at personlige erfaringer er irrelevante for denne debatten, men du får lov å mene det selv, og den filosofien jeg henviser til er til enhver tid helt i tråd med gjeldende akseptert vitenskap - hvis du vet noe annet, er jeg lutter øre Mao. virker det like greit om vi ser bort ifra dine erfaringer. Så nå har du blitt "vi" Lenke til kommentar
cuadro Skrevet 31. juli 2014 Del Skrevet 31. juli 2014 (endret) Da ser jeg bort ifra dine erfaringer. Edit: Forøvrig hevdet du i innlegg #275 at moral var til enhver tid "til salgs" i en materialistisk verden - slik vitenskapen tilnærmer seg vårt moralsyn - og kontrastet dette med ditt eget. Nå hevder du at disse to til enhver tid er helt i tråd med hverandre. Enten er ikke kontrasten der, og din argumentasjon gir ingen mening fra starten av, eller kontrasten er der og din konklusjon bærer preg av å være usannsynlig og individuell "erfaring". Endret 1. august 2014 av cuadro Lenke til kommentar
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