Underskriftskampanje - dyreplageri

[Mahogany]

 

Hvorfor skal de være i bur uansett? Det som er greia, man vet aldri, vi vet ikke hva dyr tenker og føler ...

Minner meg om en av mine favorittbøker, Life Of Pi (anbefaler den på det sterkeste, både film og bok).

 

"I have heard nearly as much nonsense about zoos as I have about God and religion. Well-meaning, but misinformed people think animals in the wild are "happy" because they are "free". These people usually have a large, handsome predator in mind, a lion or a cheetah (the life of a gnu or of an aardvark is rarely exalted). They imagine this wild animal roaming about the savannah on digestive walks after eating prey that accepted its lot piously, or going for callisthenic runs to stay slim after overindulging. They imagine this animal overseeing its offspring proudly and tenderly, the whole family watching the setting of the sun from the limbs of trees with sighs of pleasure. The life of the wild animal is simple, noble and meaningful, they imagine. Then it is captured by wicked men and thrown into tiny jails. Its "happiness" is dashed. It yearns mightily for "freedom" and does all it can to escape. Being denied its "freedom" for too long, the animal becomes a shadow of itself, its spirit broken. So some people imagine.

This is not the way it is.

Animals in the wild lead lives of compulsion and necessity within an unforgiving social hierarchy in an environment where the supply of fear is high and the supply of food low and where territory must constantly be defended and parasites forever endured. What is the meaning of freedom in such a context? Animals in the wild are, in practice, free neither in space nor in time, nor in their personal relations. In theory - that is, as a simple physical possibility - an animal could pick up and go, flaunting all the social conventions and boundaries proper to its species. But such an event is less likely to happen than for a member of our own species, say a shopkeeper with all the usual tiesto family, to friends, to society, to drop everything and walk away from his life with only the spare change in his pockets and the clothes on his frame.

If a man, boldest and most intelligent of creatures, won't wander from place to place, a stranger to all, beholden to none, why would an animal, which is by temperament far more conservative? For that is what animals are, conservative, one might even say reactionary, The smallest changes can upset them. They want things to be just so, day after day, month after month. Surprises are highly disagreeable to them. You see this in their spatial relations. An animal inhabits its space, whether in a zoo or in the wild, in the same way chess pieces move about a chessboard - significantly.

There is no more happenstance, no more "freedom", involved in the whereabouts of a lizard or a bear or a deer than in the location of a knight on a chessboard. Both speak of pattern and purpose, In the wild, animals stick to the same paths for the same pressing reasons, season after season. In a zoo, if an animal is not in its normal place in its regular posture at the usual hour, it means something. It may be the reflection of nothing more than a minor change in the environment. A coiled hose left out by a keeper has made a menacing impression. A puddle has formed that bothers the animal. A ladder is making a shadow. But it could mean something more. At its worst, it could be that most dreaded thing to a zoo director, a symptom, a herald of trouble to come, a reason to inspect the dung, to cross-examine the keeper, to summon the vet. All this because a stork is not standing where it usually stands!

But let me pursue for a moment only one aspect of the question. If you went to a home, kicked down the front door, chased the people who lived there out into the street and said, "Go! You are free! Free as a bird! Go! Go!" -- do you think they would shout and dance for joy? They wouldn't. Birds are not free. The people you've just evicted would sputter, "With what right do you throw us out? This is our home. We own it. We have lived here for years. We're calling the police, you scoundrel." Don't we say, "There's no place like home"? That's certainly what animals feel. Animals are territorial. That is the key to their minds. Only a familiar territory will allow them to fulfill the two relentless imperatives, of the wild: the avoidance of enemies and the getting of food and water. A biologically sound zoo enclosure - whether cage, pit, moated island, corral, terrarium, aviary or aquarium - is just another territory, peculiar only in its size and in its proximity to human territory. That it is so much smaller than what it would be in nature stands to reason.

Territories in the wild are large not as a matter of taste but of necessity. In a zoo, we do for animals what we have done for ourselves with houses: We bring together in a small space what in the wild is spread out. Whereas before for us the cave was here, the river over there, the hunting grounds a mile that way, the lookout next to it, the berries somewhere else - all of them infested with lions, snakes, ants, leeches and poison ivy - now the river flows through taps at hand's reach and we can wash next to where we sleep, we can eat where we have cooked, and we can surround the whole with a protective wall and keep it dean and warm. A house is a compressed territory where our basic needs can be close by and safely. A sound zoo enclosure is the equivalent for an animal (with the noteworthy absence of a fireplace or the like, present in every human habitation). Finding within it all the places it needs - a lookout, a place for resting, for eating and drinking, for bathing, for grooming, etc. and finding that there is no need to go hunting, food appearing six days a week, an animal will take possession of its zoo space in the same way it would lay claim to a new space in the wild, exploring it and marking it out in the normal ways of its species, with sprays of urine perhaps.

Once this moving-in ritual is done and the animal has settled, it will not feel like a nervous tenant, and even less like a prisoner, but rather like a landholder, and it will behave in the same way within its enclosure as it would in its territory in the wild, including defending it tooth and nail should it be invaded. Such an enclosure is subjectively neither better nor worse for an animal than its condition in the wild, so long as it fulfills the animal's needs, a territory, natural or constructed, simply is, without judgment, a given, like the spots on a leopard.

One might even argue that if an animal could choose with intelligence, it would opt for living in a zoo, since the major difference between a zoo and the wild is the absence of parasites and enemies and the abundance of food in the first, and their respective abundance and scarcity in the second. Think about it yourself. Would you rather be put up at the Ritz with free room service and unlimited access to a doctor or be homeless without a soul to care for you? But animals are incapable of such discernment. Within the limits of their nature, they make do with what they have.

A good zoo is a place of carefully worked-out coincidence: exactly where an animal says to us, "stay out!" with its urine or other secretion, we say to it, "stay in!" with our barriers. Under such conditions of diplomatic peace, all animals are content and we can relax and have a look at each other. In the literature can be found legions of examples of animals that could escape but did not, or did and returned. There is the case of the chimpanzee whose cage door was left unlocked and had swung open. Increasingly anxious, the chimp began to shriek and to slam the door shut repeatedly - with a deafening clang each time - until the keeper, notified by a visitor, hurried over to remedy the situation. A herd of roe-deer in a European zoo stepped out of their corral when the gate was left open. Frightened by visitors, the deer bolted for the nearby forest, which had its own herd of wild roe-deer and could support more.

Nonetheless, the zoo roe-deer quickly returned to their corral. In another zoo a worker was walking to his work site at an early hour, carrying planks of wood, when, to his horror, a bear emerged from the morning mist, heading straight for him at a confident pace. The man dropped the planks and ran for his life. The zoo staff immediately started searching for the escaped bear. They found it back in its enclosure, having climbed down into its pit the way it had climbed out, by way of a tree that had fallen over. It was thought that the noise of the planks of wood falling to the ground had frightened it. But I don't insist.

I don't mean to defend zoos. Close them all down if you want (and let us hope that what wildlife remains can survive in what is left of the natural world). I know zoos are no longer in people's good graces. Religion faces the same problem. Certain illusions about freedom plague them both."

[Intueri]

1. For mange dyr så er dyrehager siste skanse.

2. Jeg har både hatt fugl og fisk. De stortrivdes de. Undulaten min Knøtte levde i 13år, han hadde et godt liv. Fiskene levde også lenge, og de ble tatt godt vare på.

 

Mulig, man vi kan ikke ta sjansen, det kan være at vi ikke forstår.

For noe tull. Hvor tar du alt dette pølsevevet fra?

 

Skjønt det selv bare, jeg er heldig med genene mine (intelligensen) Hvorfor tror du det er så mange alenemødre i samfunnet også? De bare utnytter systemet.

Endret 17. september 2013 av Intueri

[Quote]

Du kommer aldri til å få underskriften min, siden vilkårene dine minner om ekstremisme. Med dette vil du i bunn og grunn forby å ha dyr i stall også - eksempelvis hest. Kyr blir holdt 'fanget' inne i en fjøs? Tja.

 

Hva med katt og hund som blir fanget inne i et hus?

[aklla]

Hva skal man gjøre med dyrene som er i fangenskap da?

Skal jeg slippe løs fiskene mine i en innsjø?

Jage katta?

Begge deler går en sikker død i møte...

[Intueri]

Du kommer aldri til å få underskriften min, siden vilkårene dine minner om ekstremisme. Med dette vil du i bunn og grunn forby å ha dyr i stall også - eksempelvis hest. Kyr blir holdt 'fanget' inne i en fjøs? Tja.

 

Hva med katt og hund som blir fanget inne i et hus?

 

Nei, stall er jo greit for de kommer seg jo ut ofte.. Og man kan ikke akkurat plassere hester ute i villmarken igjen heller. Innekatt vil jeg forby, men hun i bånd er jo greit da, får ikke gjort så mye med det heller.

Hva skal man gjøre med dyrene som er i fangenskap da?

Skal jeg slippe løs fiskene mine i en innsjø?

Jage katta?

Begge deler går en sikker død i møte...

 

Katta går jo fritt ute allerede? Fiskene får du bare ha til de dør da, må jo bare ta ansvar når man først har satt de i situasjonen. Har selv fikset katteluke, noe som hjelper.

Endret 17. september 2013 av Intueri

[Uderzo]

 

Mulig, man vi kan ikke ta sjansen, det kan være at vi ikke forstår.

 

Skjønt det selv bare, jeg er heldig med genene mine (intelligensen) Hvorfor tror du det er så mange alenemødre i samfunnet også? De bare utnytter systemet.

Jeg tror du overvurderer din intelligens en smule. Det er mange grunner til at kvinner blir alenemødre, men utnytte systemet, eeh?

Endret 17. september 2013 av Uderzo

[aklla]

Katta går jo fritt ute allerede? Fiskene får du bare ha til de dør da, må jo bare ta ansvar når man først har satt de i situasjonen.

Katta er "fanger" da den ikke overlever ute alene.

 

Du har en helt ekstrem holdning ovenfor dyreplageri. Hva med å faktisk fokusere på ekte dyreplageri? Dyr som blir sultet, slått, skutt på, må leve i alt for små bur som ikke blir vasket osv?

[Intueri]

Jeg tror du overvurderer din intelligens en smule. Det er mange grunner til at kvinner blir alenemødre, men utnytte systemet, eeh?

 

ja, bare tullet

Endret 17. september 2013 av Intueri

[Intueri]

Katta er "fanger" da den ikke overlever ute alene.

 

Du har en helt ekstrem holdning ovenfor dyreplageri. Hva med å faktisk fokusere på ekte dyreplageri? Dyr som blir sultet, slått, skutt på, må leve i alt for små bur som ikke blir vasket osv?

 

Har ikke tenkt å fokusere noe på det, jeg ville bare ha bort unødvendig fangenskap av dyr. Med det, tror jeg mye annet dritt ville blitt borte også.

[Uderzo]

 

hehe du ser ikke det jeg ser, får ikke forklart det heller, jeg bare skjønner det - og de skjønner også at jeg forstår, men ingen av oss sier noe, ikke sant. Ganske frustrerende for meg, for jeg vet at de lurer folk, men jeg får ikke gjort noe med det.

Det er ikke mangel på høye tanker om seg selv her. Ja, vi dumme mannfolkene har nok ikke skjønt det

Endret 17. september 2013 av Uderzo

[Intueri]

Det er ikke mangel på høye tanker om seg selv her. Ja, vi dumme mannfolkene har nok ikke skjønt det. Du får kose deg med narsissismen din

 

Er ikke ute etter oppmerksomhet Neida, mener ikke at menn flest er dumme, jeg har vel bare litt mer kvinnelige gener da så jeg forstår de bedre.. ja, noe i den dur. er jo litt feminin av natur så.

Endret 17. september 2013 av Intueri

[Uderzo]

 

Er ikke ute etter oppmerksomhet Neida, mener ikke at menn flest er dumme, jeg har vel bare litt mer kvinnelige gener da så jeg forstår de bedre.. ja, noe i den dur.

Så du er altså Mel Gibsons rollefigur i "What Women Wants". Nice!

 

Endret 17. september 2013 av Uderzo

[Intueri]

Minner meg om en av mine favorittbøker, Life Of Pi (anbefaler den på det sterkeste, både film og bok).

 

"I have heard nearly as much nonsense about zoos as I have about God and religion. Well-meaning, but misinformed people think animals in the wild are "happy" because they are "free". These people usually have a large, handsome predator in mind, a lion or a cheetah (the life of a gnu or of an aardvark is rarely exalted). They imagine this wild animal roaming about the savannah on digestive walks after eating prey that accepted its lot piously, or going for callisthenic runs to stay slim after overindulging. They imagine this animal overseeing its offspring proudly and tenderly, the whole family watching the setting of the sun from the limbs of trees with sighs of pleasure. The life of the wild animal is simple, noble and meaningful, they imagine. Then it is captured by wicked men and thrown into tiny jails. Its "happiness" is dashed. It yearns mightily for "freedom" and does all it can to escape. Being denied its "freedom" for too long, the animal becomes a shadow of itself, its spirit broken. So some people imagine.

This is not the way it is.

Animals in the wild lead lives of compulsion and necessity within an unforgiving social hierarchy in an environment where the supply of fear is high and the supply of food low and where territory must constantly be defended and parasites forever endured. What is the meaning of freedom in such a context? Animals in the wild are, in practice, free neither in space nor in time, nor in their personal relations. In theory - that is, as a simple physical possibility - an animal could pick up and go, flaunting all the social conventions and boundaries proper to its species. But such an event is less likely to happen than for a member of our own species, say a shopkeeper with all the usual tiesto family, to friends, to society, to drop everything and walk away from his life with only the spare change in his pockets and the clothes on his frame.

If a man, boldest and most intelligent of creatures, won't wander from place to place, a stranger to all, beholden to none, why would an animal, which is by temperament far more conservative? For that is what animals are, conservative, one might even say reactionary, The smallest changes can upset them. They want things to be just so, day after day, month after month. Surprises are highly disagreeable to them. You see this in their spatial relations. An animal inhabits its space, whether in a zoo or in the wild, in the same way chess pieces move about a chessboard - significantly.

There is no more happenstance, no more "freedom", involved in the whereabouts of a lizard or a bear or a deer than in the location of a knight on a chessboard. Both speak of pattern and purpose, In the wild, animals stick to the same paths for the same pressing reasons, season after season. In a zoo, if an animal is not in its normal place in its regular posture at the usual hour, it means something. It may be the reflection of nothing more than a minor change in the environment. A coiled hose left out by a keeper has made a menacing impression. A puddle has formed that bothers the animal. A ladder is making a shadow. But it could mean something more. At its worst, it could be that most dreaded thing to a zoo director, a symptom, a herald of trouble to come, a reason to inspect the dung, to cross-examine the keeper, to summon the vet. All this because a stork is not standing where it usually stands!

But let me pursue for a moment only one aspect of the question. If you went to a home, kicked down the front door, chased the people who lived there out into the street and said, "Go! You are free! Free as a bird! Go! Go!" -- do you think they would shout and dance for joy? They wouldn't. Birds are not free. The people you've just evicted would sputter, "With what right do you throw us out? This is our home. We own it. We have lived here for years. We're calling the police, you scoundrel." Don't we say, "There's no place like home"? That's certainly what animals feel. Animals are territorial. That is the key to their minds. Only a familiar territory will allow them to fulfill the two relentless imperatives, of the wild: the avoidance of enemies and the getting of food and water. A biologically sound zoo enclosure - whether cage, pit, moated island, corral, terrarium, aviary or aquarium - is just another territory, peculiar only in its size and in its proximity to human territory. That it is so much smaller than what it would be in nature stands to reason.

Territories in the wild are large not as a matter of taste but of necessity. In a zoo, we do for animals what we have done for ourselves with houses: We bring together in a small space what in the wild is spread out. Whereas before for us the cave was here, the river over there, the hunting grounds a mile that way, the lookout next to it, the berries somewhere else - all of them infested with lions, snakes, ants, leeches and poison ivy - now the river flows through taps at hand's reach and we can wash next to where we sleep, we can eat where we have cooked, and we can surround the whole with a protective wall and keep it dean and warm. A house is a compressed territory where our basic needs can be close by and safely. A sound zoo enclosure is the equivalent for an animal (with the noteworthy absence of a fireplace or the like, present in every human habitation). Finding within it all the places it needs - a lookout, a place for resting, for eating and drinking, for bathing, for grooming, etc. and finding that there is no need to go hunting, food appearing six days a week, an animal will take possession of its zoo space in the same way it would lay claim to a new space in the wild, exploring it and marking it out in the normal ways of its species, with sprays of urine perhaps.

Once this moving-in ritual is done and the animal has settled, it will not feel like a nervous tenant, and even less like a prisoner, but rather like a landholder, and it will behave in the same way within its enclosure as it would in its territory in the wild, including defending it tooth and nail should it be invaded. Such an enclosure is subjectively neither better nor worse for an animal than its condition in the wild, so long as it fulfills the animal's needs, a territory, natural or constructed, simply is, without judgment, a given, like the spots on a leopard.

One might even argue that if an animal could choose with intelligence, it would opt for living in a zoo, since the major difference between a zoo and the wild is the absence of parasites and enemies and the abundance of food in the first, and their respective abundance and scarcity in the second. Think about it yourself. Would you rather be put up at the Ritz with free room service and unlimited access to a doctor or be homeless without a soul to care for you? But animals are incapable of such discernment. Within the limits of their nature, they make do with what they have.

A good zoo is a place of carefully worked-out coincidence: exactly where an animal says to us, "stay out!" with its urine or other secretion, we say to it, "stay in!" with our barriers. Under such conditions of diplomatic peace, all animals are content and we can relax and have a look at each other. In the literature can be found legions of examples of animals that could escape but did not, or did and returned. There is the case of the chimpanzee whose cage door was left unlocked and had swung open. Increasingly anxious, the chimp began to shriek and to slam the door shut repeatedly - with a deafening clang each time - until the keeper, notified by a visitor, hurried over to remedy the situation. A herd of roe-deer in a European zoo stepped out of their corral when the gate was left open. Frightened by visitors, the deer bolted for the nearby forest, which had its own herd of wild roe-deer and could support more.

Nonetheless, the zoo roe-deer quickly returned to their corral. In another zoo a worker was walking to his work site at an early hour, carrying planks of wood, when, to his horror, a bear emerged from the morning mist, heading straight for him at a confident pace. The man dropped the planks and ran for his life. The zoo staff immediately started searching for the escaped bear. They found it back in its enclosure, having climbed down into its pit the way it had climbed out, by way of a tree that had fallen over. It was thought that the noise of the planks of wood falling to the ground had frightened it. But I don't insist.

I don't mean to defend zoos. Close them all down if you want (and let us hope that what wildlife remains can survive in what is left of the natural world). I know zoos are no longer in people's good graces. Religion faces the same problem. Certain illusions about freedom plague them both."

 

Ja, er enig i at å stenge dyreparker ikke er løsningen på alt, for ignoransen er fortsatt der selvsagt. Tenkte det var greit å begynne et sted bare, det blir jo på samme måte som at vi har intutisjoner, som fengselsvesenet og Psykiatrien, ikke sant, det er jo for å kompensere for at folk ikke klarer å behandle hverandre bra nok, og da er det helt grunnleggende at man ihvertfall ikke bygger ut disse instutisjonene, for da har man det gående bare.

[aklla]

Har ikke tenkt å fokusere noe på det, jeg ville bare ha bort unødvendig fangenskap av dyr. Med det, tror jeg mye annet dritt ville blitt borte også.

Denne karen:

 

Trenger like mye oppmerksomhet som denne?:

 

Åpenbart, du er jo tydeligvis intelligent nok til å se at begge disse er mishandlet...

[Quote]

 

Nei, stall er jo greit for de kommer seg jo ut ofte.. Og man kan ikke akkurat plassere hester ute i villmarken igjen heller. Innekatt vil jeg forby, men hun i bånd er jo greit da, får ikke gjort så mye med det heller.

 

Katta går jo fritt ute allerede? Fiskene får du bare ha til de dør da, må jo bare ta ansvar når man først har satt de i situasjonen. Har selv fikset katteluke, noe som hjelper.

 

Da burde det vel gå greit å ha dyr i bur, så lenge de kommer seg ut ofte?

[Intueri]

Så du er altså Mel Gibsons rollefigur i "What Women Wants". Nice!

 

 

 

hehehe han er jo litt sprø da.

Endret 17. september 2013 av Intueri

[Uderzo]

 

 

hehehe han var dum nok til å gifte seg også, falt for det eldgamle trikset, nå må man punge ut. Kvinner generelt er noen drittunger bare, forandrer seg aldri. Hadde meglerdame over til meg nylig også - vet du hva? Hun presterte å tilby meg en salgsoppgave med avisannonser inkludert (10.000 kr), til tross for at det er bortkastede penger i og med at alle har nett og sånt i dag, men hun sa ingenting selvsagt. Og når jeg konfronterte henne med det, så sa hun noe med at "ja, jeg har ikke statestikken over hvor effektivt er" med en litt sånn, skal si, care-face tone.. Hun VISSTE at det var bortkastede penger, men hun prøvde seg likevel, så de er drittunger hele livet egentlig. Har solgt bolig selv før to ganger, med avisannonser til og med, det er bare bortkastet, ga kanskje 100 ekstra visninger - kontra tusenvis på Finn.no. Ikke alle kvinner er sånn da,, men de fleste.

Da setter vi en strek for diskusjonen om ditt kvinnesyn, ok? Det er min skyld at vi gikk off topic.

Endret 17. september 2013 av Uderzo

[Intueri]

 

Da burde det vel gå greit å ha dyr i bur, så lenge de kommer seg ut ofte?

Ikke å sette de i bur, nei, fugler kan jo fint være utendørs de - utenom når man importerer de, men det vil jeg ha en slutt på også, så da er ikke det noe problem lengre heller forsåvidt.

[Mahogany]

 

Ja, er enig i at å stenge dyreparker ikke er løsningen på alt, for ignoransen er fortsatt der selvsagt. Tenkte det var greit å begynne et sted bare, det blir jo på samme måte som at vi har intutisjoner, som fengselsvesenet og Psykiatrien, ikke sant, det er jo for å kompensere for at folk ikke klarer å behandle hverandre bra nok, og da er det helt grunnleggende at man ihvertfall ikke bygger ut disse instutisjonene, for da har man det gående bare.

Høres ut som om du har god kjennskap til psykiatrien, ja.

[Intueri]

Høres ut som om du har god kjennskap til psykiatrien, ja.

 

All you need is love ... Og hva er kjærlighet, sånn egentlig? Jo, akseptanse. Folk får problemer når de ikke aksepterer hverandre 100 %.

Endret 17. september 2013 av Intueri