Luis Suarez-tråden

[Colin.]

Rodgers gjør ikke annet enn å si det som stemmer. Suarez blir urettferdig behandlet pdd. Bare å gå tilbake til filminga og overspillinga for Suarez, større sjans for at han får noe da enn når han spiller fair. Folk sier jo at han allerede har ødelagt for seg selv, så hvorfor være fair når han ikke får noe ut av det. Dommerne svarer jo uprofesjonelle hendelser med uprofesjonelle hendelser.

[Gubban]

Synes Suarez legger litt opp til dette selv. Han overspiller litt vell ofte, men jeg er enig med at dommerne må slette det fra minne og fokusere på hver enkelt situasjon individuelt

[Leaf]

Selv om Suarez overspiller og filmer latterlig mye, så skal det da fortsatt være slik at dommere er nøytrale og behandler alle spillere likt.

[Gubban]

Ja det er jeg helt enig i

[The Hoff]

Selv om Suarez overspiller og filmer latterlig mye, så skal det da fortsatt være slik at dommere er nøytrale og behandler alle spillere likt.

 

Blæh, den klisjeen der har jeg sett spredd som ild i tørt gress de siste dagene. Verden fungerer ikke sånn. I rettsvesenet dømmes mennesker fordi dommerpanelet ikke tror på vitneutsagn fra tiltalte, ofte på bakgrunn av tidligere rulleblad og forseelser. Det er helt greit der, og det er helt greit på fotballbanen.

[Aleks]

Ikke bare det. Det er en umulig oppgave i tillegg. Ihvertfall så lenge det er mennesker som dømmer.

[Leaf]

Selvfølgelig vil dommerne gjøre feil fra tid til annen, men å si at Suarez ikke fortjener å få noe ut av å bli taklet og stemplet stygt blir for dumt. Hvis han filmer, så straff han. Blir han taklet stygt, straff motspilleren.

[Latias]

I can't help feeling that threads like this tell us more about nature of what it is to be a modern football fan, rather than the underlying player himself. Everyone has a slightly different view on suarez, and everyone is partially correct, because we're all looking at the same thing, but seeing it in a slightly differently way. Everyone supports luis, but all of the arguments come down to the degree that people are prepared to accept that our players are able to behave badly, and on how unconditional their support is.

 

There are some on this thread who completely refuse to accept that Luis is capable of doing any wrong whatsoever. he is a victim in his own life, suffering from conspiracies trying to drag him down at every turn. The Evra story was completely fabricated, a conspiracy between Man Utd and the referees. His reputation for diving is a product of the xenophobic media, who have chosen him out of all the foreign players in the premiership to focus on. This type of person looks at yesterdays game, and sees huth's stamp on suarez a very clearly and yesterdays dive hardly at all.

Then the next type of fan sees that luis is doing a bit of wrong, but that it is justified on the basis that he gets the hoop booted off him in every game. They see him diving, but they instead concentrate much more on the way that he doesn't get free kicks, rather than his efforts to win them, and the connection between the two. They see him less as a victim in his own life, but more someone fighting against the unfairness in the way that forwards are generally treated, and him in particular.

 

Then there is the next type of fan who is prepared to see Luis as someone who is frequently wronged, but is also perfectly capable of bad behaviour all by himself. They want him to get the penalties he deserves, but they also cringe every time he dives because they know that it is going to be highlighted, and used as a stick to beat him with. They know that each dive makes it less likely that he will get the penalty he deserves. but they also know that in many respects he is largely in control of his own reputation and only he is control of his own behaviour.

 

Where you fit on this spectrum really comes down to the way that you support the team. where you are on this spectrum is a measure of how unconditional your support for the club's players is. The fan who believes that Luis is incapable of doing wrong, because he wears the liverbird on his crest, supports the team unconditionally. It is an all embracing love that refuses to see any wrong. You have the unconditional love of a child for its parent for the club, and the unconditional love of a parent for a child when it comes to the teams players. (this is not meant as a criticism by the way. Everyone supports the club in their own way)

 

As you move towards the other end of the spectrum, you are getting into the realms of more conditional love. You have been burned too many times to just accept things on face value any more. You will love a player more the better he behaves, and the better he performs. But having a look at the last 20 odd years of our existence, you are aware that not all footballers are the same, and that some of them are capable of bad behaviour, even in a liverpool jersey, even supremely talented ones. (does anyone else remember stan collymore?)

 

The thing is that where you stand on this spectrum is not a measure of how much you love liverpool. Unconditional love is more intense, but it isn't necessarily any better than the conditional love of the wary. People who think that luis suarez should behave better don't love liverpool any less. They just want to see him behave in a way that matches the traditions and the best interests of the club. (basically I would like luis suarez to behave a lot more like kenny dalglish or peter beardsley did on the pitch)

The problem with unconditional love, no matter how deeply it is felt, is that it is unrealistic. If you firmly cling to the idea that our player can do no wrong, then you wind up having to come up with all sorts of other beliefs to support that. If you believe that Luis is capable of no wrong, then you wind up seeing the whole incident with evra as a massive conspiracy against the club, starting with Patrice Evra, and involving Alex Ferguson, the FA, the media. If you think that he doesn't dive, or that he hardly ever dives, then you will have to come up with a deliberate conspiracy against him involving all the referees, and once again xenophobia starts to sneak into it. You have to create an entire narrative about the corruption of the fundamental structure of english football to explain why Luis gets into trouble and is treated a certain way.

 

People who aren't liverpool Fans, look at luis suarez, and they don't see a player capable of doing no wrong. They see the guy who punched the ball off the line against Ghana, and danced. They see the guy who bit an opponent. They see a player who is perfectly capable of doing wrong, and sometimes capable of doing some really spectacular wrong stuff. Those people look at the Evra/suarez case and think that he probably did it. Those who can be bothered to read the FA tribunal pay attention to the total collapse of Luis's defence under cross examination, and they see a guilty person. To them he seems capable of just about anything, and to them, talk of a massive conspiracy against him seems quite frankly mental. They see Suarez's reputation for diving as deserved, and see him missing out on penalties as mostly his fault, because referees can't tell if he is fouled, or diving.

 

The truth is somewhere in the middle. Suarez is a great player, and his commitment on the pitch is truly heroic. But he is also an adult, in control of and responsible for his own behaviour and how he carries himself. he is a Liverpool player, and such will get enormous support, however as a liverpool player he should be expected to behave in a certain way. he can't directly control the behaviour of others, and so is only responsible for his own. He can't really control how people currently see him, but he can only start behaving properly, in the hope of gradually changing his image. After last week when he scored a hattrick, and was rugby tackled to the ground, suddenly you started to have newspapers talking about how he would have to be killed to get a penalty. However by choosing to dive yesterday he completely killed that story stone dead before it did us any good. It's going to take more than one weeks good behaviour to change peoples attitudes towards him, and he needs to show more self control.

 

It boils down to this. His track record of dubious behaviour before signing liverpool was pretty spectacular. Therefore to automatically assume that luis is always in the right, and largely incapable of wrong is deeply unrealistic. Perhaps it would be wise while supporting him like any other liverpool player, to view his behaviour with a certain amount of scepticism. Rather than immediately jump in and accept, or justify his behaviour, perhaps it might be best to look carefully at what he does, see how it measures up to how we want a liverpool player to behave, and judge him on that. People like ashley young or danny Welbeck play for other clubs. It's kind of irrelevant to us. You can't justify his behaviour by referring to other players, and saying they're all at it. Nobody is ultimately convinced by that argument as you don't make yourself look better, just everyone else look worse as well.

 

Your profile isn't going to be improved by pointing out how everyone else is also bad. Your reputation is only going to be changed by you behaving well under even the fiercest provocation. Someone above mentioned that turning the other cheek didn't work against Norwich, but that is to miss the point of that story from the bible. The point of turning the other cheek is that if the other person strikes you, you keep showing them the other cheek, and showing that you are better than this. Eventually the other person grows tired of hitting you, and eventually starts to respect you for your moral fortitude. it's the story of how christianity went from oppressed minor jewish cult, to World religion within 300 years. There's simply no point in turning the other cheek once, and then after that slapping the other guy around. That's not going to impress anyone, or change anyone's opinion of you.

 

If suarez hadn't dived yesterday, the story would have been about robert huth stamping on his chest, and booting the shit out of him, with little protection from refs. It wouldn't be anywhere near as big, but it would have been the big story from the game, instead of the absurdly posturing tony pullis. Another couple of games like that and people would have started to feel sorry for suarez, because quite frankly the way he was treated by Stoke and the ref was absurd. That's how you build a bit of a media bandwagon. But Diving like that made the story about the dive, rather than stoke's brutal and excessive tactics.

 

The question is ultimately how long can you maintain unconditional support, if Luis isn't going to play ball. Over the last couple of weeks Stevie G, Glen Johnson and Brendan Rodgers have all come out saying that he has been harshly treated, doesn't get the protection he deserves, and that his reputation for diving is unearned. Then he does what he did yesterday. What must they be thinking? they did their bit, now it is up to Luis to do his bit. At the moment it's got to the point where he can't get fouls or penalties, because of incidents like yesterday. The only way he's ever going to win another penalty is by not diving for months. An incident like yesterday takes a long time to erase.

 

I'm afraid that at some point, we are going to have to accept that Luis is a partial author of his own misfortunes. While our unconditional love for the club is something that should be encouraged, we also need to accept that players are only human, and as such assuming that they are always right, or can do little wrong is an unreasonable position to adopt. By giving players unconditional support to players, we run the very real risk of not holding them to the highest possible standards, and allowing them to fall short. I'm not convinced that that should be the Liverpool way.

It think it ultimately boils down to the following. We can recognize that we're not getting the penalties and free kicks we're getting. We can sit around and moan about referees, and conspiracies, and football can be a continual source of pain and misery and cause of rage. what is the actual point of watching something that you think is fixed? that doesn't seem to be getting us anywhere. Alternatively we can accept that luis bears a lot of responsibility for this mess and get him to change his behaviour and become the player he could be. We might even get the odd penalty along the way. The third option is to sell him if he refuses to change his behaviour.

 

If he winds up being sold, People will split into two groups. Those that continue to side with him regardless, and his sale will be the biggest mistake the club ever made. In his absence he will become the greatest ever player to play for the club. Others will side with the club regardless, his behaviour will be seen as a bit embarrassing by them, and they'll say that he wasn't really all that good anyway. Arguments will rage across threads on RAWK for years, and mods will be locking threads

 

In the midst of disaster, there are so many positive stories about us at the moment. Some of the football we have been playing, after such a short space of time is fantastic. we have a widely popular and respected manager, We have an army of talented young players. Many of whom look like being serious players for us for the next decade. Things are hard enough as they stand. We need Luis to stop winding up in headlines. He's got the big new contract. Now is the time for him to step up to his responsibilities as a senior liverpool player, and start behaving in something closer to the Liverpool way of old. It seemed to work very well for them.

[Gjest Slettet-D7I5Gr2]

Enig.

[Latias]

 

RAWK er herlig underholdning.

[AllFather]

 

 

 

 

 

Endret 10. oktober 2012 av AllFather

[GnilreG]

Ikke enig i det hele tatt.

 

but they also cringe every time he dives because they know that it is going to be highlighted.

 

Every time he dive? Han enda ikke gjort det i Liverpool drakt.

[The Hoff]

Mot min bedre viten spør jeg; Hva mener du egentlig? Han har > 10 soleklare dives på samvittigheten i Liverpool-drakt.

Endret 10. oktober 2012 av The Hoff

[GnilreG]

Jeg troller ikke. Har sett alle Liverpool kampene, har enda til gode og se en dive. Trur mange her inne ikke vet forksjellen på filming og overdriving av et fall. Filming eller da "dive" er når du legger deg uten kontakt. Viss noen kan finne en video av at han gjør det i Liverpool drakt skal jeg personlig sende over en tusenlapp. Sist helg var heller ikke en dive, men en latterlig overdrivelse av fall etter takling med kontakt som skulle vært straffe.

 

At du sier han har over 10 dives får meg til og lure på om du i det hele tatt vet hva en fotball er for noe.

[Jotun]

Hehehe... Dette er hva man kan definere som en sveiseblind supporter!

[AllFather]

Tja,nå ser det ut som han beskriver en diver som en som faller helt 100% uten kontakt.

Er han så firkanta så har han vel rett.

 

Siste kamp ble han trakket på, grisetaklet og det som verre er, også reiste han seg bare opp, smilte og riste på hodet. Men så siste gangen han ble felt fant han ut at "heeey, her tar jeg en Young" og slengte seg en time etter et kakk på foten.

 

så helt idiotisk ut, selv om han ble felt først..

[The Redmen]

Jeg er veeeeeldig enig i at mange ikke vet forskjellen på filming å overdriving. Suarez er ikke den værste i PL til å filme, men på overdriving er han i verdenstoppen...

Men viss jeg hadde blitt behandlet som mot Stoke, hadde jeg overdrevet når jeg ble tatt inne i straffefeltet etterpå jeg og ja. Men han falt litt seint da

[Snurreleif]

Så hele det innlegget faller i grus bare fordi innlegget sin forfatter ikke utbedret hva noen her inne mener er forskjellen på krisemaksimering og å kaste seg?

[Patrick123]

Og poenget ditt er?

["""]

At alle lag har drittspillere som overspiller og filmer, og suarez ikke er den eneste. Var ikke det ganske åpenbart?