Luis Suarez-tråden

[Solaar]

Håper han er tilbake mot Spurs, morsommere å gruse et fulltallig Liverpool

[Sheasy]

Etter at jeg faktisk har lest rapporten vil jeg kommentere en del påstander som har frekventert i det siste.

 

#1: "Negro" er et helt harmløst ord i Uruguay, og Suarez mente ikke noe negativt med å tiltale Evra slik

 

The word "negro" can have pejorative connotations, as it may be associated with low class

status, ugliness, vulgar behaviour, noisiness, violence, dishonesty, sexual promiscuity etc.

In the River Plate region, for example, "los negros" is sometimes employed as a general

term for the lower classes and especially for lower-class people whose behaviour is

deemed vulgar and not "respectable".

171. Thus, the word can be employed with the intent to offend and to offend in racial terms;

often the word would be appended with further insult, as in the example "negro de

mierda" [shitty black].

172. The word "negro" is by no means, however, always used offensively. The term can also be

used as a friendly form of address to someone seen as somewhat brown-skinned or even

just black-haired. It may be used affectionately between man and wife, or

girlfriend/boyfriend, it may be used as a nickname in everyday speech, it may be used to

identify in neutral and descriptive fashion someone of dark skin; several famous people in

Uruguay are known as "el negro/la negra such-and-such".

 

Though these terms are often used between friends or relatives, they are not used

exclusively so; thus, an individual might call out to a passer-by "ay, negro, querés jugar

con nosotros?" [hey, blackie, do you want to play with us?]; in all cases, however, when

the word is used in this way it implies a sense of rapport or the attempt to create such

rapport; naturally, if the term were used with a sneer, then it might carry some of the

negative connotations referred to above.

 

 

Mr Evra stated that the goalmouth incident started when he addressed Mr Suarez,

beginning with the phrase "Concha de tu hermana". According to the experts, the literal

translation is "your sister's cunt" and it can be taken as a general swear word expressing

anger, although the word "concha" is not as taboo as the English word "cunt". It is thus

equivalent to "fucking hell" or "fuck me". If directed at someone in particular, it can also be

understood as "[you] son of a bitch".

179. Assuming Mr Suarez responded with "Porque tu eres negro", this would be interpreted in

Uruguay and other regions of Latin America as racially offensive. When the noun is used

in the way described by Mr Evra, it is not a friendly form of address, but is used in an

insulting way: it is given as the rationale for an act of physical aggression (the foul), as if

the person deserved such an attack since they are black. The term is not being used as in

paragraphs 172 and 173 above, but in the sense of paragraph 171

 

Kanskje overraskende for noen, men kontekst er faktisk viktig også i Uruguay. I en opphetet diskusjon, hvilken bruk virker mest sannsynlig?

 

#2: Hele saken er ord mot ord

 

Først av alt, Suarez har innrømmet bruk av ordet "negro", selv om han hevder at det ikke var ment for å provosere. I tillegg har man dette utdraget:

 

The position, therefore, is as follows. Mr Suarez spoke in Spanish to Mr Comolli soon after

the game about this serious allegation. Mr Suarez also spoke in Dutch to Mr Kuyt. Both

Mr Comolli and Mr Kuyt understood Mr Suarez to have told them that when he spoke to

Mr Evra he said words which translate into English as, "Because you are black". According

to Mr Suarez, Mr Comolli misheard what Mr Suarez said in Spanish, and Mr Kuyt

misheard what Mr Suarez said in Dutch.

 

Både Kuyt og Comolli, som begge har snakket med Suarez (på to forskjellige språk), støtter altså

Evras påstand i dette tilfellet.

 

I tillegg sier selv McCormick dette:

 

It was accepted by both Mr Greaney and Mr McCormick in closing submissions that this is

not simply a case of one person's word against another.

#3: Evra hevdet at han fikk gult kort pga sin hudfarge

 

116. We found the evidence of Mr Marriner on this point to be credible and plausible. He recalled Mr Evra telling him that he was being called black. This is consistent with Mr Evra's evidence of what he told Mr Marriner at that time, and also with Mr Giggs' evidence of what Mr Evra said to him shortly afterwards. In light of this, we reject Mr Kuyt's evidence that Mr Evra said that the referee was only booking him because he was black, however certain Mr Kuyt was that he heard it. Moreover, it would make no sense in the circumstances for Mr Evra to accuse the referee of only booking him because he was black. Not only had Mr Evra pushed Mr Kuyt away, which he is likely to have realised had led to his booking, but his concern at that stage was that he had been called black (bearing in mind that, at the very least, Mr Suarez admits having called Mr Evra "negro" by this stage of the game).

 

Evra og Giggs er kanskje ikke de beste vitnene, spesielt ikke i en Liverpool-tråd, men dommeren (som også var den personen Evra faktisk snakket til) bør være mer enn godkjent.

 

#4: En professor hevder at Suarez garantert ikke ville sagt "porque tu eres negro", derfor må dommen være feil

 

Professoren heter Aldo Mazzucchelli, og jeg kopierer her et utdrag postet på side 3352 av brukeren Funtazz:

 

I am a native speaker of Montevideo, a PhD in Spanish by Stanford, and currently a professor of Spanish at Brown University, and if I was called to court on this, I would categorically deny that Suarez, who lived his adult life in Montevideo—despite being born in Salto—could have said other than “vos sos negro”. There is no way in the world he could have said to Evra, spontaneously and as a reaction to Evra’s words and attitudes, “porque tu eres negro”—and much less “tues negro”, that doesn’t exist. Simply “tues” is no Spanish.

Despite of that, the FA makes it stand and transcribes it in their report, and substantiate their conviction on these words.

 

I read the whole FA report. I am a Uruguayan born in Montevideo, currently a university Literature and Language professor in the US. It is clear to me that the Spanish language reported by Evra is inconsistent with Luis Suárez’s way of speaking Spanish. I am surprised nobody (and especially, the Liverpool lawyers) raised this point. The key is that Evra makes Suárez to appear using forms of Spanish Suárez just wouldn't use. Suárez cannot speak as Evra reported him speaking. And that strongly suggests that Evra made the whole thing up.

 

Professoren har angivelig lest hele rapporten, men fikk dessverre ikke med seg dette utdraget:

 

181. The experts noted that the use of the verb form "porque tu eres negro" is not the most usual

form for Montevidean Spanish, since the form of the verb "ser" most commonly used

would be the "vos" form, that is "porque (vos) sos negro". Nevertheless, a small percentage

of people from Montevideo do use the "tu" form (in contrast to Buenos Aires, where it is

rarely used) or even a mixture of both. In the interview with Mr Suarez the transcription

indicated to the experts that he uses the "tu" form of the verb, though there are other

filmed interviews published on the internet in which he uses the "vos" form of the verb.

Given that he has spent some considerable time in Europe it is possible that his use of

Spanish alters between Uruguayan and European contexts. It is also possible that Mr Evra,

who may have learned his Spanish in Spain, where the "vos" form is not used, may, when

recalling the incident in interview, have rendered Mr Suarez’s usage as the "tu" form, even

if Mr Suarez used the "vos" form.

[Jotun]

Halmstråd! Helt ferske nyplukkede halmstrå her!

 

Løp og kjøp!!!

[indahla]

Halmstråd! Helt ferske nyplukkede halmstrå her!

 

Løp og kjøp!!!

Kan du andre ord enn halmstrå?

[Jotun]

Jada! Tre ord til:

 

Seg, til og klamre.

[cmyrland]

For Guds skyld, la nå Suarez-saken ligge. LFC og Suarez har gitt opp, selv om de er uenige. Suspensjonen startet i dag. Det er ikke noe mer å diskutere.

 

Snakk heller om hvordan vi skal løse det faktum at Liverpool er målfarlige som Tufte IL, eller hvilke spillere vi må hente inn for å løfte laget i siste halvdel av sesongen.

[Colin.]

En taktisk bra avgjørelse av Liverpool å ikke anke Suarez-saken dersom de trodde de ikke ville komme noen vei med det allikevel. Etter at FA gav Suarez 8 kamper regnet vel de fleste med soleklare bevis fra FA, men den gang ei. Når en rapport på godt over 100 sider blir publisert, der det ble brukt unødvendig mye tid i den forstand at rapporten ikke kunne konkludere med noe sikkert, men at FA foretrekker Evra's versjon... ja, da er det like greit at Liverpool motvillig aksepterer Suarez sin straff. Som det står i Liverpools uttalelse, Liverpool FC støtter ikke rasisme, og å dra ut denne saken enda lenger, nå som FA har brukt så lang tid med sin rapport, der deres subjektive syn blir avgjørende, er ikke nødvendig. Taktisk bra av Liverpool på flere plan, Suarez blir utestengt i 4 kamper som ikke er i ligaen også, så det er jo bra.

 

Vi får bare akseptere straffen og gå videre, uavhengig om man mener han fortjente straff eller ikke for noe som ikke ble bevist. Men jeg tror de aller fleste er enig i at verken Liverpool FC eller Suarez støtter rasisme.

--

 

Mot Man City spilte vi forøvrig dårlig. Skaper alt for lite. Mye udyktighet kombinert med personlige feil, da går det som det går mot det beste laget så langt denne sesongen.

[AllFather]

Jeg mener hele saken er alt for dårlig, og hadde Liverpool gått retten sin vei så hadde nok garantert vunnet.

Men problemet med en eventuell anke er at man kunne se ifra dag en at FA allerede hadde bestemt seg for utkommet av saken, og Blatter sin kommentar gjorde at de nektet å kjøre "normal" linje på udokumentere påstander.

 

Synes det er rett av Liverpool å bare droppe anke for å bli ferdig med saken da FA allerede har bestemt seg for at de ikke vil rikke sitt standpunkt.

[The Hoff]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/jan/04/kenny-dalglish-luis-suarez-transcript

 

 

Dalglish er gal. Akkurat som Benitez ble!

[Ol'H]

Liverpool has lost the plot. Jeg har ikke sett dårligere håndtering av media noensinne fra noen klubb i Premier League.

[Jotun]

Dalglish er gal. Akkurat som Benitez ble!

 

Kanskje det ikke var mannen, men klubben?

[Lucky Luciano]

[Prusk]

http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/01/05/sport/fotball/premier_league/luis_suarez/manchester_united/19671704/

 

Suarez sier unnskyld om noen ble støtt av ordet han brukte mot Evra. Har han ikke fått med seg at alt dette startet fordi Evra ble støtt?

[Leo_Khenir]

Ifølge Daily Mail aksepterer Liverpool nå straffen, men synes at også Evra burde fått suspensjon fordi han skal ha uttrykt seg nedsettende om Suarez' søster, på spansk.

 

Herregud, nå blir jeg flau over egen klubb. Evra åpnet vel med "fitta til din søster" eller hva det nå var, noe som det jo også nevnes i rapporten brukes på samme måte som "motherfucker" eller kanskje mer passende, "son of a bitch".

 

La nå saken ligge for guds skyld! Jeg er møkklei hele greia, aksepterer straffen (leste gjennom rapporten og prøvde å tolke den tålig objektivt), og gleder meg bare til Suarez er tilbake for å voldta Evra (ikke bokstavelig ment. Eller...?) på Old Trafford ved neste korsvei.

[Prusk]

Det er vel for lengst skrevet i karmaboken at Suarez skal putte mot oss i sitt comeback.

[Leo_Khenir]

Sant nok.

 

Det Liverpool driver med nå er litt sånn:

 

"Per, gå i skammekroken fordi du slo Ole!"

 

"Men jeg slo ham ikke for å være slem, bare vennskapelig!"

 

"Teller ikke, Ole ble lei seg, gå i skammekroken med deg!"

 

"Ok da".

 

5 minutter senere, fra skammekroken:

 

"Men frøken, Ole kalte meg dust først, han må også i skammekroken!"

 

 

Djizøz. Jeg blir så lei.

[Leo_Khenir]

Seriøst, kan ikke spilleres mødre bare holde kjeft.

[Varmo]

@liam_tomkins

Luis Suarez has reported to training despite #LFC offering him a week off to spend time with his family.

[Leo_Khenir]

Burde drepe ryktene om at han vil bort fra klubben.

[Funtazz]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2082325/Patrice-Evra-N-word-video-youtube.html