paranoid schizofreni blant andre mordere

[traveldag]

Ønsker en tråd der vi kan diskutere likheter og ulikheter mellom Breivik og andre mordere gjennom tidene. De andre trådene om Breivik og tilregnlighet har målt handlingene opp mot normalen i samfunnet og det politiske. Dette blir diskusjonen rundt Breivik og andre straffe- eller psykisk helseverndømte mordere.

 

Standarden for Tilregnlighet er definert etter om personen"forstår forskjell mellom rett og galt". Breivik blir forsåvidt et tvilstilfelle i mine øyne da han vet at det han gjorde sees på som galt (selv om tydligvis ikke er i stand til å føle dette på kroppen), men han insisterer på at det han gjorde var rett.

 

Likheten mellom paranoide shizofrene Ted Kaczynski og Breivik er slående:

Frykten de begge følte var så lik at Breivik kopierte manifestet men byttet ut "teknologi" med "islam"

Her er begrunnelsen Ted Kaczynski kommer med som en forklaring på hvorfor han drepte "In order go get our message before the public with some chance of making a lasting impression, we've had to kill people" Merk hvordan unabomberen bruker "vi" selv om han alltid var alene og hvordan han forsvarer drapene som en nødvendighet

 

Kle seg som politi har blitt gjor før:

"One of the earliest serial killers, Edmund Kemper suffered from paranoid schizophrenia and murdered his own mother as the culmination of a string of intensive and fatal attacks. Often posing as a police officer, Kemper picked up women looking for a ride who were too young and inexperienced to turn him down." Likheten videre mellom Breivik og Kemper er liten, men barndommen har mange likheter "As a child he was extremely bright, but displayed sociopathic behavior from a young age, including cruelty to animals; he purportedly fatally stabbed a pet cat at age"

 

Videre har vi mordere som det virker som dreper mere tilfeldig, men troen på at de virkelig gjør det rette er der:

 

"Herbert Mullin heard his father's voice in his head, commanding, "Why won't you give me anything? Go kill somebody — move!" By killing people, Mullin was convinced, he was actually preventing earthquakes and tidal waves. Unlike most serial killers, he was not seeking a certain type of victim. His 13 "sacrificial" victims included a family, a priest, a homeless man and some hapless campers."

 

"On a self-described "divine mission": John Linley Frazier, slaughtered a wealthy Santa Cruz family in 1970 because he believed they had been "polluting and destroying the Earth." Initially he was called an "acid casualty," but later tests revealed Frazier as an acute paranoid schizophrenic." Videre deler han samme sosiale adferd som Breivik "In Human Monsters, David Everitt writes that Frazier's life was fairly normal. He dropped out of high school to work as an auto mechanic and he appeared to be a steady worker. He married and fathered a child, but when he began to take drugs in early 1970, the marriage broke up. He soon became a zealot about ecology, and adopting the attitudes of the "drop out" counterculture, he quit his job to avoid "contributing to the death cycle of the planet." He left his wife on July 4, 1970. He then became fascinated with tarot cards and their mystical meaning. He grew increasingly paranoid and even his hippie friends, with all their emphasis on peace, love and tolerance began to avoid him. He went off by himself and became something of a hermit. He lived on his mother's property in the Soquel hills in a small shack in the woods (Lunde refers to it as a ramshackle cow shed)." Også vært å merke seg at Fraizer var i et miljø som på mange måter kan sammenlignes med miljøet Breivik har deltatt i på nett, men fokuset har vært på innvandring og ikke på å ta vare på planeten.

 

Virginia tech morderen: "The shooter was identified as 23-year-old Seung-Hui Cho, a South Korean citizen with U.S. permanent resident status. An undergraduate at Virginia Tech, Cho lived in Harper Hall, a dormitory west of West Ambler Johnston Hall."

 

" On April 18, 2007, NBC News received a package from Cho time-stamped between the first and second shooting episodes. It contained an 1800 word manifesto, photos, and 27 digitally recorded videos, in which Cho likened himself to Jesus Christ and expressed his hatred of the wealthy. He stated, among other things, "You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option...You just loved to crucify me. You loved inducing cancer in my head, terror in my heart and ripping my soul all this time" Her er det også store likheter til hvordan Breivik pompøst beskriver seg selv i manifestet sitt, selv om Cho mener at hatet spesielt er rettet mot han som person og Breivik mener at regjeringen og pressen er ute etter å utrydde etniske norske.

Endret 22. april 2012 av traveldag

[norasofie]

Interessant tråd! Jeg har også hengt meg opp i diagnosen han fikk av de første sakkyndige, og jeg "personlig" var fornøyd med den, da den gir svar på mye av det uforståelige. Derfor har det vært vanskelig å godta den nye rapporten, og som media fremstiller den; den riktige rapporten. Etter rettsaken startet har det jo raknet litt for ABB, særlig med tanke på hans påstander rundt Knights Templar. Nå undres jeg litt over hvorfor han skulle funnet på dette, når han er så brutalt ærlig om de andre punktene rundt hans liv, tanker og gjerninger. Siden han den gangen fikk diagnosen paranoid schizofren, har jeg strekt linjer mellom ham og John Forbes Nash, Nobelpris-vinner i økonomi og matematikk, mer kjent fra filmen (med det upassende navnet) Et Vakkert Sinn, som også hadde denne diagnosen. En smart mann, som dessverre ble lammet av paranoide og desillusjonelle episoder. Dersom den første diagnosen er riktig, kan det være at all kontakt ABB har hatt med de påståtte Knights Templar Ridderne kun har vært en illusjon? Synes det er merkelig om han skulle lyve om akkurat dette?

[Budeia]

Hvis de hører stemmer, så er det jo greit med den diagnosen. Men hvis de bare har uvanlige forestillinger om samfunnet, er det ikke fullt så enkelt...

 

For eksempel hadde Kaczynski rett i at myndighetene ville komme til å ødelegge naturen omkring området der han hadde sin lille hytte. Han har også rett i at det er fint å bo for seg selv i en hytte, hvis man ønsker det. Så på den måten stiller han vel på linje med de som lenket seg fast mot Alta-utbyggingen? Men K. valgte selvfølgelig mer ytterliggående reaksjonsmetoder, han valgte å terrorisere.

 

I middelalderen ville sikkert den spanske inkvisisjon ha brukt diagnosen, hvis de hadde kjent til den. At folk som har makt og flertall bak seg deler ut diagnosen, gjør den ikke mer riktig. Jeg mener det ikke er riktig å diagnostisere en bekymret person på denne måten. At man er bekymret for samfunnsutviklingen viser tvert imot at man er i stand til å være interessert i det som er utenfor ens egen lille verden.

[traveldag]

"Shortly after Mr. Kaczynski's arrest while still housed in Montana, Dale war-son, Ph.D., administered a battery of psychological tests to Mr. Kaczynski. No report of his findings is available, but the rest results were interpreted and expanded upon by two other defense experts, Ruben Gur, Ph.D., and Karen Froming, Ph.D. On 06,1-1-5/96 and 06/16/96, Mr. Kaczynski was interviewed by Raquel Gur, M.D., Ph.D., and neuropsychological testing was conducted by Ruben Gur- It was Dr. Raquel Gur's impression that Mr. Kaczynski met the diagnostic criteria for Schizophrenia, Paranoid Type, and Dr. Ruben Gur's impression that the testing was not inconsistent with this. After sharing their opinions with Mr. Kaczynski, he refused to talk with them further and expressed his wish for his defense attorney to avoid further use of their services or bringing their findings to light."

 

"Dr. Froming also interviewed Mr. Kaczynski in February 1997 and complete additional neuropsychological testing. She also reviewed previous testing done after he entered Harvard. Phone interview revealed that Mr. Kaczynski also had been administered the TAT (Thematic Apperception Test) during that period, but it had never been scored. She scored it and indicated that the themes he presented throughout the test consisted of people being dominated by others, that his responses showed no personal interactions through any of the cards, and showed a complete absence of affiliation. She opined that Mr. Kaczynski was suffering from Paranoid Schizophrenia. She indicated that Mr. Kaczynski refused to talk with her further after she shared her opinion with him."

 

"Phone interview of Sherry Woods, a librarian in Lincoln, Montana, was conducted during this evaluation. She was given an opportunity to share her observations about Mr. Kaczynski. Ms. Woods described that she liked Mr. Kaczynski, but she recognized his discomfort around people and that others would perceive him as different. She indicated she told new staff about him in order to help accommodate his differences in support of his continued Library use. She described him as extremely polite, quite and soft spoken, although she initially found his appearance as somewhat frightening. She described his ability to identify with her young child, whom she indicated shared some of the kinds of problems that Mr. Kaczynski may have had himself as a child. She noted that he patted her son on the shoulder twice, which is the only physical contact she ever saw him display over the 13 years of their acquaintance."

 

"

She described Mr. Kaczynski as living a life style consistent with his beliefs and admired him for that. She enjoyed talking with him about his beliefs and indicated he had very strong feelings against government - Although she had the idea that their conversations never changed his opinions, he patiently listened to her ideas and made her feel that her thoughts were worthwhile. He would come to the Library on the average of every week or two, and usually stayed from one to two hours in the reference room. She would attempt to read his mood when he entered the Library and so there were times when it was clear he was willing to talk, and other times when he wanted to be left alone. He ordered numerous books through the inter library loan program, including some that she described as deeply intellectual. He read a wide variety of books and magazines on birds, wildlife, biographies, and hypnotism. On one occasion when she had been feeling particularly burdened, he brought to her attention that he had written a letter to the librarian in Helena, Montana, and decided he would request his books through her to save work for Ms. Woods.

It was her belief that in the year prior to his arrest, he started changing and this scared her. She viewed him as more intense and focused, and less interested in interacting. She believed that this change was due to his concern for a friend of his who was an illegal alien and had been hurt on the job and then deported. At one point he showed her a letter he was writing to some government official regarding this subject, and she was surprised he gave it to her. He indicated to her that he was meeting with friends in Colorado or California to try to help his friend. During that time period he appeared more withdrawn and would spend two to three hours at a time "writing like crazy" and then he quit coming into the Library. She does indicate that over the years, he occasionally helped around the Library by boxing books, shoveling snow, cleaning up, or painting. At one point the Library planned an open house and Mr. Kaczynski came to that function. Ms. Wood indicated that she did visit Mr. Kaczynski in jail. He has been corresponding intermittently to her, but she indicates it is actually she who is trying to maintain the correspondence as a means of support. In the last several letters prior to Christmas, she perceived that he was feeling down so she has been writing more often. She believes that the significance of his situation is all "coming home to roost.""

 

"

Mr. Kaczynski's mental status exam remained fairly consistent throughout the week of interviews. Description will be interspersed with pertinent historical mental status information. Mr. Kaczynski appeared as a slender build, gray haired, white male, who showed adequate hygiene and was dressed in orange jail clothing and a T shirt - He carried his glasses with him and utilized them while reading and writing during the interviews. He was oriented to person, date, time, place and situation. He understood the type and purpose of the evaluation and expressed his intent to cooperate. Throughout the evaluation he answered questions to the best of his ability, was able to discuss information, and relate a narrative without prompting. No abnormality of gait was noted. No psychomotor retardation was evident. There was no evidence of tremor, tics or unusual mannerisms. Eye contact was good, although when asked a question that he perceived as difficult, or one to which it appeared he was not sure how he should respond, he tended to look down and avoid further eye contact until his answer was prepared. During those times, he would also at times clench his hands together and pat them on the table, and appeared to be actually in some distress in his efforts to formulate a response. This only happened on a few occasions throughout the interviews. Speech was of normal rate and tone.

He did demonstrate some need for excessive explanation and often focused on details. In addition, the information he initially supplied in response to questions was frequently given verbatim from the information available in his voluminous writings. When pressed to expand on the issue, he presented some minor trouble in rewording his answer or in expanding or explaining it, but persisted with the examiner in an effort to accomplish the task. There was no evidence of the use of neologisms or clang associations. The volume of his speech was appropriate from a conversational standpoint and he would identify if he had any problems hearing a question or conversation above the noise of the jail. He seemed intent on clearly understanding questions posed to him. No evidence existed during the exam of any hearing problem. He showed the capacity to remain in the interview process f or periods of several hours without demonstrating undue anxiety or restlessness. On one occasion he did identify to the examiner that he was nervous during the interview and he had not felt that experience with other individuals who were interviewing him regarding mental health issues. This topic was discussed, he was able to relax, and it did not interfere with progression of the evaluation."

 

"Intelligence, as assessed within the interviews, appeared to be above average. Memory was excellent for immediate, short term, and long term recall for factual information. Concentration within the interviews was good. Mathematical ability to add, subtract, and multiply showed no evidence of problems. Mr. Kaczynski denied ever experiencing any type of hallucinatory phenomena. He was asked about auditory, visual, gustatory, olfactory,, and tactile hallucinations, and persistently denied experiencing them now or in the past. In response to routine review of similarities and proverbs, he showed an ability for abstract thinking. Thought processes showed no evidence of looseness of association. Some tangential thinking was intermittently evident throughout the interviews. As noted, he had a need to provide excessive detail in an organized fashion. There was no clear evidence of thought blocking within the interviews. Despite pauses in his ability to respond to questions, he did not show loss of his train of thought."

 

"

Mr. Kaczynski presented a clearly organized belief system that he was being harassed and harmed by modern technology. He stated that he believed that the system as it exists is bad and rebellion against it is justified. He further stated that freedom and personal dignity have greater importance that comfort and security. This belief system was explored at length with Mr. Kaczynski and it was evident that it had developed in his early 20s, during a period of time when he was feeling particularly isolated. This appear to stem from his acceptance of a variety of ideas that he had culled from reading books such as the "Technological Society" referenced above. It is interesting that he had not only latched onto the ideas that were presented, but had expanded them to the extreme and accepted the suggestions and premises, many of which were only opinions stated by the authors, as if they were fact. He has subsequently devoted his activities and time in rebellion against a future as he accepted it would be. In essence, the ideas that he collected and wrote about in the early 1970s remain the basis for his current belief system. He f eels compelled to live a life of extreme isolation and to focus his energy against the aspects of society that are attempting to control the masses. This includes a focus on advertising, genetic engineering, computer technology, business, certain aspects of education, chemical companies, etc. He expresses philosophical and personal concerns about these issues and feels personally threatened by the potential advances in these areas. Included in this is his inability to critically read newspapers, magazines, and books to determine if statements carry any actual merit. He tends to collect pieces of literature, opinions, and comments that support his views and use them as justification for continuation of his ideas. Mr. Kaczynski has intertwined his two belief systems, that society is bad and he should rebel against it, and his intense anger at his family for his perceived injustices. He talks openly about his ability to direct his anger from one set of ideas to the other quite fluidly.

Upon extended interview, it was evident that Mr. Kaczynski is extremely sensitive to even minor criticism and tends to perceive this, or even an absence of encouragement or positive response from an individual, as a deliberate attempt at humiliation or harassment. He also tends to seek support and interaction in ineffective ways and will frequently write an individual believing that an innocuous question will provide a hint of the type of response that he is looking for from the person receiving his correspondence. Evident also is his inability to identify common social cues in the environment. Historically, this appears to have been a problem even before solidification of his ideas in the late 1960s and early 1970s. There is evidence of ideas of reference in review of Mr. Kaczynski's history over an extended period of time. Incidents within the environment involving noise or human activity are perceived by him as personally directed and he responds with extreme rage and a wish for revenge. As outlined in the body of this report, historically during certain time periods he has described examples of what appear to be ideas of reference in his belief that individuals who are talking at some distance from him, have him as a topic of their conversation and are speaking negatively about him, and are impacting in a destructive or hostile way on his well being.

Despite Mr. Kaczynski's ability for abstract reasoning in response to proverbs and similarities, he tends to concretely interpret the statements of individuals. He becomes quite focused on the words of a comment, to the exclusion of focusing on the actual meaning of the phrase. Although he demonstrated the capacity to use humor within the interviews, he could not interpret light comments or attempt at teasing within the interviews and needed to have an explanation to clarify the meaning of such interactions. When asked about the basis of his belief system he attempted to provide excessive supporting evidence. When challenged on the initial premise, he appeared perplexed and it was evident that he did not challenge the belief system on his own regardless of existing evidence."

[mofomofo]

Standarden for Tilregnlighet er definert etter om personen"forstår forskjell mellom rett og galt". Breivik blir forsåvidt et tvilstilfelle i mine øyne da han vet at det han gjorde sees på som galt (selv om tydligvis ikke er i stand til å føle dette på kroppen), men han insisterer på at det han gjorde var rett.

 

Sikter du til at hvis man ikke viser tilstrekkelig anger, som står i stil med omfanget av ugjerningene man har utført, så er man kanskje utilregnelig?

[norskgoy]

Dersom den første diagnosen er riktig, kan det være at all kontakt ABB har hatt med de påståtte Knights Templar Ridderne kun har vært en illusjon? Synes det er merkelig om han skulle lyve om akkurat dette?

 

Forstår du virkelig ikke et motiv som kan forklare det? Les litt politisk historie og du vil kanskje, med kontekst og tid forstå.

[traveldag]

Standarden for Tilregnlighet er definert etter om personen"forstår forskjell mellom rett og galt". Breivik blir forsåvidt et tvilstilfelle i mine øyne da han vet at det han gjorde sees på som galt (selv om tydligvis ikke er i stand til å føle dette på kroppen), men han insisterer på at det han gjorde var rett.

 

Sikter du til at hvis man ikke viser tilstrekkelig anger, som står i stil med omfanget av ugjerningene man har utført, så er man kanskje utilregnelig?

 

Tror nok det er mer avansert enn som så. Det jeg skrev i sitattegn er vel hvordan det skal forstås i rettspraksis, men jeg finner ikke kilden på det i farta.

 

Tror ikke anger i seg selv har så mye å si, men det vil sikkert ha noe å si for helheten. Om en person dreper en annen fordi han har vært utro med kona til personen, så skal det mye til å bli erklært utilregnelig, selv om personen står å sier "jeg angrer ikke på at jeg drepte drittsekken".

 

Hadde ikke tenkt så mye over det med anger. Anger ser dog ut til å være fraværende i handlinger utført av personer med paranoid schizofreni. Dette har sikkert noe med at vrangforestillingene er så alvorlige at personen rett og slett fortsatt tror at han har gjort det rette (og det hele fører til at personen ikke kan straffes). Husk at den verden de ser og tror på føles like virkelig som vår egen. Om samfunnet plutselig skulle sagt at det er trygt å kappe av seg hodet, så hadde du fortsatt forsvart deg med livet om noen kom på døren for å bevise det.

[norasofie]

Dersom den første diagnosen er riktig, kan det være at all kontakt ABB har hatt med de påståtte Knights Templar Ridderne kun har vært en illusjon? Synes det er merkelig om han skulle lyve om akkurat dette?

 

Forstår du virkelig ikke et motiv som kan forklare det? Les litt politisk historie og du vil kanskje, med kontekst og tid forstå.

 

Jeg velger heller å stole på sakkyndige med årevis lang utdanning som ser på dette som illusjoner og vrangforestillinger. Legg fra deg uttrykket konteksten nå, det er jo tydelig at du ikke forstår det.

[Gromle]

Dersom den første diagnosen er riktig, kan det være at all kontakt ABB har hatt med de påståtte Knights Templar Ridderne kun har vært en illusjon? Synes det er merkelig om han skulle lyve om akkurat dette?

 

Forstår du virkelig ikke et motiv som kan forklare det? Les litt politisk historie og du vil kanskje, med kontekst og tid forstå.

 

Jeg velger heller å stole på sakkyndige med årevis lang utdanning som ser på dette som illusjoner og vrangforestillinger. Legg fra deg uttrykket konteksten nå, det er jo tydelig at du ikke forstår det.

 

Er det noe denne saken har vist, så er det tat de sakkyndige har svært sprikende meninger.

Og ikke minst alle psykiaterne som mener og kommenterer i øst og vest uten ha noen som helst grunnlag for å gjøre det.

[norskgoy]

Jeg velger heller å stole på sakkyndige med årevis lang utdanning som ser på dette som illusjoner og vrangforestillinger. Legg fra deg uttrykket konteksten nå, det er jo tydelig at du ikke forstår det.

 

Riktig. Bøy deg for stempel i papir. Herlig kontekst, spørsmålet er hvilken du velger å anse som korrekt med det moment som Gromle tar opp. Kanskje han/hun er utdannet i årevis i "hvordan påpeke et fagfelts totale kollaps".

Endret 25. april 2012 av norskgoy