Libyakrigen-kampen mot Gaddafi's regime

[After Dark]

Hadde det ikke vært bedre å sende inn en dødsskvadron med proffe leiemordere fra CIA da og rett og slett drepe han ?

 

Hadde ikke brydd meg, men jeg synes det ble gjort på en fin måte slik det ble gjort. Igjen, Vesten (Den frie verden) har tydeligvis lært noe av det som skjedde i Irak i år 1991.

[Gjest Slettet+9871234]

"Libyas opprørere er mistenkt for å stå bak en massehenrettelse i Sirte, etter at Human Rights Watch fant 53 lik i en massegrav.

Ja desverre ser det ut fra at de opplysningene er riktige i følge NrK. Det advarte jeg mot tidligere i tråden.

 

To gale ting gjør ikke en rett.

 

Det er ikke bra å begynne et demokrati med henrettelse av sine fiender uten lov og dom.

Endret 24. oktober 2011 av Slettet+9871234

[Kubin]

 

Videoen, som er skaffet til veie av Rauters, viser hvordan Muammar Kadhafi blir mishandlet av de som pågrep ham, kort tid før han dør.

 

Fatter ikke at folk gidder å lage noe ramaskrik utav dette!

 

Det ser ut til at lynsjingen av Gadaffi, og etterspillet med liket kan få betydning for i hvilken grad det vil komme motstand og terror mot det nye regimet.

 

"As for Gaddafi's family, Jbouri revealed that the family is to some extent divided between those who want to reconcile with the NTC and others who are determined to carry on with resistance against NATO and instigate Libyan people to resist against the NTC.

 

Asked whether Algeria, which hosts some of Gaddafi's family members, would turn in the family to the NTC, Jbouri said that after the whole world saw the ugly way Gaddafi was killed, no country would risk handing the rest of the family to the NTC."

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=GON20111024&articleId=27262

 

Samme person sier om Irak : "at first I believed that the (occupiers) are really bringing democracy with them, but it turned out to be a big lie."

 

Om situasjonen i Irak :

 

"The promised peace, national reconciliation, democracy and development were empty words.

 

Today, the vast majority of Iraqi people, even in the capital city of Baghdad, still struggle with a few hours of electricity a day. Potable water is a memory of a past, pre-occupation epoch, so is free education and health care. NATO is a war machine for corporate profit, not a social service agency. It has shown itself as incapable of reorganizing a decent life."

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=FLO20111024&articleId=27267

 

En artikkel som beskriver hvordan Gadaffi var på vei bort fra Vesten, slik at Russland og Kina fikk stadig mer innpass :

 

"Gaddafi had provoked the ire of the government of Nicolas Sarkozy in France with his hostility to its scheme for creating a Mediterranean Union, aimed at refurbishing French influence in the country’s former colonies and beyond.

 

Moreover, major US and Western European energy conglomerates increasingly chafed at what they saw as tough contract terms demanded by the Gaddafi government, as well as the threat that the Russian oil company Gazprom would be given a big stake in the exploitation of the country’s reserves."

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=VAN20111024&articleId=27264

Endret 24. oktober 2011 av Kubin

[LucarioX]

Hepp!

25 innlegg omhandlene boligpriser er splittet ut i egen tråd. Venligst hold dere til trådens tema, og rapporter neste gang en tråd går over stokk og stein.

[Baltazar94]

Det blir nok ikke noe demokrati i Libya heller.

Folket i Libya har gått fra asken til ilden.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2052398/Gaddafi-dead-Mahmoud-Jibril-says-legislation-based-Islamic-Sharia-law.html#ixzz1biF93jUG

 

Ikke noe demokrati, og mye mindre frihet en under Gaddaffi.

Endret 24. oktober 2011 av Baltazar94

[Skatteflyktning]

Ikke noe demokrati, og mye mindre frihet en under Gaddaffi.

 

Demokrati og Frihet er ikke det samme, til en viss grad er det motstridende begrep.

 

Du heller ikke si med sikkerhet at der vil bli mindre frihet med det nye styresettet enn under Gadaffi, selv om det tildels vil baserer seg på Sharia.

[Kirikovski]

Det blir nok ikke noe demokrati i Libya heller.

Folket i Libya har gått fra asken til ilden.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2052398/Gaddafi-dead-Mahmoud-Jibril-says-legislation-based-Islamic-Sharia-law.html#ixzz1biF93jUG

 

Ikke noe demokrati, og mye mindre frihet en under Gaddaffi.

 

Hvor leser du at det ikke ser ut til å bli noe demokrati?

Står da vitterlig "With Gaddafi gone, he said, the NTC must move swiftly to transform the country into a democracy".

 

Hvis det er Sharia lov du sikter til så hadde Ghaddafi mye av det allerede i landet, f.eks rentefrie lån (som Jibril sier at det skal bli mer av i talen) er basert på Sharia. Når Jibril sier at de skal løfte restriksjoner på at flerkoneri så betyr ikke det at flerkoneri var ulovlig under Ghaddafi eller sterkt begrenset, flerkoneri var lovlig men en måtte "bevise" at en hadde god nok økonomi til at en kunne forsørge enda en kone samt skaffe tillatelse fra sin første kone. Dette er restriksjoner som de vil fjerne fordi det strider mot deres religion.

 

Nå er flerkoneri uansett svært tabu i Libya og ikke veldig populært så jeg er overrasket at det i det hele tatt blir nevnt.

[herrnimrod]

Haha, rentefrie lån. Ny krig til neste år med andre ord.

 

NATO har ikke brukt milliarder på denne krigen for å gi befolkningen rentefrie lån. Her skal det plyndres.

[Baltazar94]

 

Du heller ikke si med sikkerhet at der vil bli mindre frihet med det nye styresettet enn under Gadaffi, selv om det tildels vil baserer seg på Sharia.

 

Jeg kan nok det, for frihet og sharia er ikke forenelig.

Dette betr bla at kvinnene må gå rundt som vandrende telt, slik som i Saudi-Arabia, og bare det betyr mindre frihet for en del av befolkningen. Ellers så er det også mange andre innstramminger, både for kvinner og menn.

 

sharia: Sharia is based on the principles found in the Koran and other

Islamic religious/political texts. There are no common principles between

 

Under Sharia law:

There is no freedom of religion

There is no freedom of speech

There is no freedom of thought

There is no freedom of artistic expression

There is no freedom of the press

There is no equality of peoples—a non-Muslim, a Kafi r, is never

equal to a Muslim

There is no equal protection under Sharia for different classes of

people. Justice is dualistic, with one set of laws for Muslim males and

different laws for women and non-Muslims.

There are no equal rights for women

Women can be beaten

A non-Muslim cannot bear arms

There is no democracy, since democracy means that a non-Muslim

is equal to a Muslim

Our Constitution is a man-made document of ignorance, jahiliyah,

that must submit to Sharia

Non-Muslims are dhimmis, third-class citizens

All governments must be ruled by Sharia law

Unlike common law, Sharia is not interpretive, nor can it be

changed

There is no Golden Rule

 

http://www.politicalislam.com/pdf/WebSitePDF/ShariaNonMuslim.pdf

 

Det er muslimsk brorskap som regjerer i Libya nå, og noe demokrati har aldri vært på agendaen selv om NATO påstår det.

[Skatteflyktning]

 

Du heller ikke si med sikkerhet at der vil bli mindre frihet med det nye styresettet enn under Gadaffi, selv om det tildels vil baserer seg på Sharia.

 

Jeg kan nok det, for frihet og sharia er ikke forenelig.

Frihet og Stat er heller ikke forenelig. Spørsmålet om hvorvidt den nye Staten vil være mer totalitær eller mindre totalitær enn Gadaffis regime avhenger av mange faktorer, ikke bare det at de låner noen konsepter som flerkoneri (hvilket innebærer MER frihet, ikke mindre) fra Sharia.

[Irrasjonell]

Frykter likfunn er henrettede Gaddafi-tilhengere

 

De er nok bare noen få av den totale summen. Opprørerne har hatt god tid på seg til å skjule det verste.

[Kubin]

: mishandling før lynsjing Endret 24. oktober 2011 av Kubin

[αкαѕнα]

Frykter likfunn er henrettede Gaddafi-tilhengere

 

De er nok bare noen få av den totale summen. Opprørerne har hatt god tid på seg til å skjule det verste.

 

Blir sikkert like grundig undersøkelse av denne saken som påstanden om flyangrep og massakrer i Misrata i starten av opprøret.

 

med andre ord.. relativt beskjeden...

[Irrasjonell]

Frykter likfunn er henrettede Gaddafi-tilhengere

 

De er nok bare noen få av den totale summen. Opprørerne har hatt god tid på seg til å skjule det verste.

 

Blir sikkert like grundig undersøkelse av denne saken som påstanden om flyangrep og massakrer i Misrata i starten av opprøret.

 

med andre ord.. relativt beskjeden...

 

Menneskerettighetsorganisasjoner pleier å være flinke til å hvertfall gjøre et forsøk på å undersøke hva som har skjedd og om noe har skjedd. Desverre vil nok mye sannhet gå tapt.

 

Ikke noe god start for nye Libya. Minner litt om beskrivelsene vi har hørt i flere måneder om Gadaffi.

[Kubin]

Michael Rubin har vært rådgiver for myndighetene i Irak.

 

Han sier om situasjonen i Libya at Saudi Arabia kommer til å pøse inn støtte til sine favoritter. ( Formodentlig ganske fundamentalistiske folk. ) Så hvis USA skal klare å få noen innflytelse, må de tilsvarende velge ut en favoritt(-gruppering) og pøse inn støtte :

 

"There's going to be a conflict anyway," says Rubin, a senior lecturer at the Naval Postgraduate School. "The Saudis are going to be giving billions of dollars. The question is: Are we going to play the game for influence or are we going to forfeit? To play the game, it's going to cost cold, hard cash."

 

(...)

 

The Libyan situation, he says, is similar to Iraq after the U.S. invasion, where neighboring countries funneled money and weapons to factions they wanted to prevail.

 

The U.S. should pressure oil-rich Gulf states such as Qatar and Saudi Arabia to stop sending billions of dollars in aid to Islamist groups in Libya, and it should threaten economic sanctions against Egypt, which is friendly to the Palestinian terrorist group Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood, Rubin says.

 

If the U.S. doesn't support liberal secularists most likely to adopt pro-Western policies, those factions will end up losing, Rubin says. "There's no such thing as an even playing field." "

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/story/2011-10-23/factions-fracture-libyan-opposition-after-gadhafi-death/50884946/1?csp=34news&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+UsatodaycomWorld-TopStories+%28News+-+World+-+Top+Stories%29

Endret 24. oktober 2011 av Kubin

[αкαѕнα]

Ikke noe god start for nye Libya. Minner litt om beskrivelsene vi har hørt i flere måneder om Gadaffi.

 

Apropo beskrivelser fra da krigen startet...

 

Da fikk vi se en del snutter på tv over demonstranter som ble beskytt av hva vi ble fortalt var Gaddafi sine styrker..

 

Det skulle da være demonstrasjoner MOT regimet...

 

Til min store overraskelse så dukket denne opp i dag..

 

 

Den er litt lei... Dette ble jo brukt som "bevis" for NATOs bombing,,

 

Fy flate så sykt...

[Kirikovski]

Myths of the Gaddafi regime Explained

 

There are a lot of people defending Muammer Gaddafi and his regime by stating living conditions and infrastructure in Libya was world class, and all the people in the country enjoyed unimaginable wealth. This is not true. The Gaddafi regime was rife with corruption and deception. Who you know was more important than who you were as a person, with many basic services being only available to the highest bidders.

 

Below, Nizar Mhani (Niz Ben-Essa) of the Free Generation Movement responds to common misconceptions relating to the Gaddafi regime (the bolded inaccurate statements are being circulated via email forward).

 

 

 

There are no electricity bills in Libya; electricity is free for all its citizens.

Categorically untrue. Despite poor electricity infrastructure and poor coverage of electricity lines, even in the Capital, Libyan home owners pay monthly/quarterly (area dependant) electricity bills based on meter readings. Electricity is cut off in instances of unpaid bills. Reconnection upon payment is not instant. The electric infrastructure is weak and some areas of Libya do not have electricity available at all.

 

There is no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.

Categorically untrue. Banks all over Libya have been giving out loans for years and years. There is a percentage rate charge on all loans, which is comparable to an interest rate, but in the spirit of ‘islamic ethics’ it is not called interest, it is called an ‘Administrative Expense’ – Masareef Edareeya.

 

 

A House is considered a human right in Libya ¬ Gaddafi vowed that his parents would not get a house until everyone in Libya had a home. Gaddafi¹s father has died while he, his wife and his mother are still living in a tent.

Gaddafi abused this human right as much as he did other basic rights. It is well known in Libya that political opponents and successful business men/women had their homes confiscated and handed over to regime members, usually rewards for Free Officers – Dubat A7rar. Many farms and homes and businesses were confiscated during three infamous phases of Libyas dictatorial history:

 

1969 – The dreaded Green Revolution. Free Officers were rewarded land, homes, and farms that sometimes belonged to other people and the original owners were not compensated or asked if this was ok.

Late 70’s - The introduction of the law Albayt le Sakinehee – The Home Belongs to its Dwellers. As this law was passed overnight, thousands of homeowners instantly lost their homes, as tenants (those renting the homes) claimed ownership on account of being the ‘dwellers’. The law applied to homes, farms, shops, etc.

90’s - The introduction of Purification Committees (Lejnat al Tatheer). This committee ran by the widely know slogan, ‘Min ayna laka hada?’ – “From where did you obtain this?”, a form of ultra-socialism where people’s possessions, including homes and businesses, were confiscated if seen to be ‘surplus to requirement’ or contributing to a ‘monopoly’.

 

Regarding Gaddafis ‘vow’: While Gaddafi waited for ‘everyone in Libya’ to be housed, he himself lived in a sprawling 6km square compound in the centre of the capital which was home to state of the art security and an underground network of rooms and ultramodern bunkers. He also had a vast and well known farm on Airport Road in Tripoli. This, just in the capital.

 

 

All newlyweds in Libya receive $60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start up the family.

This is a well known rumour and a common joke in Libya. Whilst it may have been passed as official legislation, I know of not a single family who has been given this grant. The backbreaking bureaucracy associated with such grants and loans make them more or less impossible to obtain.

 

 

Education and medical treatments are free in Libya. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans are literate. Today the figure is 83%.

Education and Health Care – Free does not mean adequate. It is well known that Libya’s standard of health care is nothing short of appalling. It is widely known that the majority of Libyans seeking medical care leave for neighbouring countries for treatment. Our Education system is no better. It is outdated, teachers are underpaid and under-trained and libraries are largely non-existent. The syllabus was constantly being revised and reviewed under direct instruction from the former regime e.g. banning English, changing Quranic verses, etc.

 

It is commonly said that Libyans would be happy to forfeit their ‘free health care’ and pay for a National Health Service if it was up to the required standard.

 

 

Should Libyans want to take up farming career, they would receive farming land, a farming house, equipments, seeds and Livestock to kick- start their farms all for free.

This has never happened, in addition to this many farms and homes have been confiscated by the government to build railroads, The Great Man Made River and civil roads.

 

The owners of the land were only compensated if there was a covered structure on the land as the Gaddafi regime legally owned any land and the people were only allowed to build on it. When there was compensation offered it was nowhere near the actual value of the property and many waited years to receive anything if at all. This system was also rife with corruption many residents told they had to pay a bribe to receive what little they were given.

 

 

If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government funds them to go abroad for it not only free but they get $2, 300/month accommodation and car allowance.

Categorically untrue. If this was the case, the former regime would have been in receipt of 6 million application forms – one for every man, women and child who ‘cannot find education or medical facilities they need’. This grant does not exist for the mainstream public. There is anectdotal evidence of some medical grants being given but again, the system was corrupt and opaque.

 

 

In Libyan, if a Libyan buys a car, the government pays 50% of the price. ‎The price of petrol in Libya is $0.14 per liter.

There is no truth to the former Gaddafi regime paying 50% of the value of a new car.

 

Whilst the price of fuel is indeed cheap, the quality of roads, the accuracy and availability of road signs, the presence of road traffic police, and all other transport infrastructure is of abysmal standard.

 

The absence of an integrated and functional public transport system means that people are reliant on their cars for all movement and might end up paying more on fuel than our neighbours around the Mediterranean basin.

 

 

If a Libyan is unable to get employment after graduation the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.

Categorically untrue. Even basic wages are sometimes unpaid for months, for those lucky enough to be employed. Welfare for the unemployed is non-existent.

 

 

A portion of Libyan oil sale is credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.

No basis to this claim as no such case can be found.

 

 

A mother who gave birth to a child receive US $5 ,000

Categorically untrue. There is a Child Benefit welfare payment in Libya – it is roughly 15-20 Libyan Dinars a month per child. No Libyan citizen was given foreign currency as compensation.

 

 

40 loaves of bread in Libya costs $ 0.15

Bread was subsidized by the state. Whilst the price varies (marginally) from shop to shop, bread usually costs ¼ dinars for 10 baguettes (small) or roughly 500grams per dinar.

 

 

25% of Libyans have a university degree

The absence of a comprehensive selection process and a corrupt entry protocol means that universities in Libya are grossly over populated and over subscribed, despite limited facilities. This results in an over inflated number of graduates, but not necessarily an adequate level of employability. There are thousands of students studying foundation year medicine in Tripoli alone.

 

 

 

Gaddafi carried out the world¹s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available.

The Jury is still out on this. The project has indeed supplied water to many towns and cities around Libya, but the cost is thought to be as stratastrophic as the time it took to complete this. Further, decades of an absence of appropriate licensing, monitoring and control has meant that wells were dug for every home, putting immense pressure on Libya’s natural and naturally replenishable water sources. This resulted in the increase of salinity in local water reserves, which lead to the need for an expansive project such as the Man Made River.

 

 

[After Dark]

Det ser ut til at lynsjingen av Gadaffi, og etterspillet med liket kan få betydning for i hvilken grad det vil komme motstand og terror mot det nye regimet.

 

Ja, ser klart og tydelig det problemet. Men jeg vil likevel ikke kritisere behandlingen av Gaddafi. Bare tenk på hva disse folkene har måttet leve under i 42 år...

[After Dark]

Overgangsrådet: - Gadafi er gravlagt på hemmelig sted

 

Muammar al-Gadafi ble gravlagt ved soloppgang på hemmelig sted.

 

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/Overgangsrdet---Gadafi-er-gravlagt-p-hemmelig-sted-6678970.html

 

Der snøt de riktig nok villhundene og rottene for et godt måltid, men dette var nok en god ide å løse striden rundt Gaddafis lik på. Hadde han blitt gravlagt åpenlyst kunne det nok blitt problemer med familie og gaddafilojale som ville snike seg dit for å grave opp liket for å flytte det, kamper ol. Nå slipper man iallefall det.

[Gjest Slettet+9871234]

Det blir nok ikke noe demokrati i Libya heller.

Folket i Libya har gått fra asken til ilden.

Ja det var vel akkurat det uttrykket jeg benyttet tidligere i tråden med henvisning til det som skjedde da Sjahen falt.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2052398/Gaddafi-dead-Mahmoud-Jibril-says-legislation-based-Islamic-Sharia-law.html#ixzz1biF93jUG

 

Dette

 

Mohammed Bodima, said: ‘We have fought and spilled blood for democracy. What is this about sharia law?’ The father-of-two used to live in Catford, south-east London, but now resides in Benghazi, birthplace of the revolution.

 

He added: ‘If we are to have sharia, it must be voted on by the population. That would be democracy.’

 

Tripoli resident Abdul Azzud said: ‘I am very worried. Nobody realised this is what we would get.

 

‘They are going in the wrong direction if they impose sharia. It is extremely concerning.’ After making his surprise announcement at a liberation ceremony in Benghazi, Mr Abdul-Jalil stepped from the podium to kneel and offer a prayer of thanks.

 

Later he was at pains to insist Libya would not drift towards religious extremism.

 

‘I want to assure the international community that we as Libyans are moderate Muslims,’ he said. And he said the proposed constitution was ‘temporary’ and would be put to a referendum.

 

But in his earlier speech, he announced: ‘Any law that violates sharia is null and void legally,’ citing a marriage law passed by Gaddafi imposing restrictions on polygamy.

 

The Muslim holy book, the Koran, allows men to take up to four wives.

 

‘The law of divorce and marriage, this law is contrary to sharia and it is stopped,’ Mr Abdul-Jalil declared.

 

His remarks were condemned by Adelrahman al-Shatr, a founder of the new centre-right Party of National Solidarity.

 

‘By abolishing the marriage law, women lose the right to keep the family home if they divorce,’ he said. ‘It is a disaster for Libyan women.

 

‘It is a subject that should be discussed with the political groups and the Libyan people. These declarations create pain and bitterness among women.’

 

A 40-year-old Libyan woman called Rim added: ‘It is shocking and insulting to state, after thousands of Libyans have paid for freedom with their lives, that the priority is to allow men to marry in secret.

 

‘We did not slay Goliath so that we now live under the Inquisition.’

 

sitatet kan jo tolkes i mange retninger.

 

Ikke noe demokrati, og mye mindre frihet en under Gaddaffi.

Det er nok for tidlig å konkludere med det nå. La oss gi dem 8 måneder til et år, et valg og se hva som skjer før vi feller den dommen.