Too difficult to find a job as an architect foreigner in Norway?

[Camlon]

Well, Camlon. He has worked for a real company in Holland for a full year. A phonecall would soon clearify what they do and what he did there.

One year of experience is not enough, and it was an internship.

[Kaarerekanraadi]

Well, Camlon. He has worked for a real company in Holland for a full year. A phonecall would soon clearify what they do and what he did there.

One year of experience is not enough, and it was an internship.

 

But how will a norwegian architect graduate then get a job? They may have no experience at all.

[Camlon]

Well, Camlon. He has worked for a real company in Holland for a full year. A phonecall would soon clearify what they do and what he did there.

One year of experience is not enough, and it was an internship.

 

But how will a norwegian architect graduate then get a job? They may have no experience at all.

They should have some work experience (internship) before they want to get a job. But they attended an university that Norwegian employers trust, and if they got good grades they should be pretty sweet. Other advantages they have is:

- They are Norwegian, hence no paperwork for citizenship or other problems.

- They can speak English and Norwegian well

- They live in Norway, hence you can have a face to face interview

- They most likely fit in the Norwegian culture. It means it's more likely they will fit into the company structure, that they will function in team work and you can socialize with them without any culture crash.

[george85]

@ Camlon:

 

I see you know nothing about architectural post studies internships at The Netherlands.

There is a huge difference between the "during studies" and "post studies" internships. At first ones, you get yourself a supervisor, mentor, who is always there for you each day, and checks your work. Second (my) type of internship is something completely different. You work as a regular indenpendent employee, there is no difference between you and the other employees. In fact this the only difference is that you get 320 euros, and they get 2000 euros. And they have a contract, and I do not.

 

On my internship at The Netherlands I did a light design and calculation of the main entrance porch, something that not many architects from Europe know how to do, because light calculation is not a job of an architect, it is a job of an electrical engineer.

 

I am currently working on the 600m2 both commercial and residential object. Except for the architectural work (if there is a chance to call it like that, due to all the savings in money), I am also calculating the construction of the object - beams, columns, lintels, slabs, foundations. Last year I created a project for the national exposition pavilion. And I also calculated and designed most of steel space frame Mero structure, along with its supports, anchors and foundations. In Europe (probably in rest of the world also, but I am certain that this is the case in Europe), and also in my country an architects do not do this kind of things, because they do not know how to do it - a structural engineer does it!.

I have also already designed and calculated the water supply pipes system and sewage system in the already mentioned 600m2 building. In my country, and probably in Europe also, a waste engineer does this kind of things, not an architect.

 

I am not going to participate in this topic anymore, as I feel insulted each time I read some of your posts. I though you are talking abstractly, generalizing your opinion.

But now I see you are constantly trying to send the "ball" to my side of the field, and one by one mention me, and connect me with "cheating".

[Camlon]

I don't think you got the point. I never said internship is real work. It's good to have internships under your belt, but you can't compare it to a proper architect job. I said that you only have one year of experience and it was an internshp. Internships aren't as highly regarded, because you were not hired for profit. It is much easier for a company to pay 320 euros for an internship than 2000 euros for a normal employee. But I also focused on the number of years. One year of experience is not enough.

 

I may be wrong, but I don't see why doing work not that related to architecture will make your internship any better. Sure, you done some engineering work. But if an employer wants someone to do engineering work, they would hire an engineer, or use a contract. They want an architect, not an architect doing engineering work.

 

I'm not trying to insult you, but you need to toughen up. I never said you cheated, but I said that you could cheat, and employers won't know if you did or not. That's a fact, and I don't see why I should camuflage it to not hurt your feelings.

Endret 14. januar 2011 av Camlon

[Kubjelle]

First off, you can't base it off one person. One person is not representive for all employers and a lot of people say something and do something else due to political correctness. Also, I rather trust the people I have talked to, than the people you claim you have talked to.

I haven't based any of my opinions on one person. I'm just saying between you and ochi9le. I consider ochi9le a more credible source. I don't know if you on purpose misinterpret what I say or if it's just due to incompetence, either way I urge you to put some more thought into your accusations.

 

If they are not viewed the same, then why? It's certinally not because NTNU and other Norwegian universities provides only top graduates and they have so few limited positions that they hve to turn down excelent candidates. It's because many employers would be skeptical and if they hire wrong person they will lose a lot of money. That means, they don't trust Serbian education.

1. The prestige between the universities. 2. Skepticism against eastern Europe countries. 3. Language. And so on, there are many reasons ...

 

And my point is that they don't know the quality or if they cheated. They may not know about the extensive cheating, but most employers know that cheating is quite normal in many third world countries. Yes, the person might be excelent in other areas, hence they will still hire him. But his university is a negative factor before he get work experience. There is no way you can deny that!

I'm not denying that he graduated from Serbia is a disadvantage compared to if you graduated in Norway. I'm saying that I don't think there is a general distrust against the east european education system. I also think that there are enough of ways to control check the competence of the applicant and thus each employer would assess each applicant individually.

 

 

Norwegians do not care about traditions? You don't think that it is plausible that a company is so used to only hiring people from Norway that they don't consider hiring anyone from another country?

No, generally the ones I have talked to, don't hire foreigners because they don't know what they are getting. If they hire someone from NTNU they know what they will get, and they are still quite certain if they hire someone from Switzerland. Most employers have no clue about the quality of Serbian graduates and if they hire wrong person they will lose a lot of money, especially since it is very hard to fire people in Norway.

Ok. Yet another credible source you have there.(Sarcasm) And I don't think you have asked that (particular) question and I don't think that anyone would be competent to answer it. No one wants to be bound by tradition, but everyone is. Most of the time they don't know it.

 

If prejudice was the only reason, then it would be harder for a foreigner rather than a Norwegian graduate to get the same job. Which I'm pretty sure is the case.

Yes, but if prejudice was the only reason, then it would be equally hard for a foreigner with a Norwegian education, as a foreigner with a education from Serbia. I'm quite sure that's not the case.

1. Prejudice probably isn't the only reason. 2. That example is not balanced because Norwegian education is in a higher regard for a employer than a foreign education. (Which I've never disputed)

 

I'm not saying that the employer won't be skeptical, I'm just saying I don't think that the employer thinks that the education of the applicant can't be trusted. And I'm pretty sure that it's pretty easy to figure out if the applicant is the real deal or not.

Bullshit. You obviously have very little experience hiring. It's very hard to see if an employee is a good employee and if you hire wrong people, your business is going to lose money. There are lots of pitfals which you may not see in the interview. Even if they have cheated, you may not discover that in the interview, because they still know something and they prepare themselves. They may not fit in the company structure, or keep "cheating" in the company. They may be terrible team workers or get sick all the time. How are you supposed to figure out that in a 60 min interview?

Hahahaha. This is fucking pathetic. I'm pretty sure I've never stated anything here that would suggest that I have any experience in hiring people. I havn't said anything bombastic(unlike you). So this will be an exception. When it comes to the technical aspect I'm pretty sure that you could figure out if the applicant got anything under his belt or not. Make a case that the applicant has to solve in the interview, ask technical questions to him, read his masters, make a phone call to the previous employer, make a phonecall to his professor and so on. The other stuff (team worker, sickness) is irrelevant as that could as it is not related to his education from Serbia. It could just as easily apply for someone who graduated from Norway.

 

 

And being skeptical means they don't trust Serbian education. You are just afraid of saying it directly.

No it doesn't. And no.

[Camlon]

snip

I think this debate is pretty much over, as you are flaming me.

 

Think about this, if I am skeptical if my girlfriend will cheat on me. Do I then trust her? If you say yes. Do you think she will have the same opinion? What if I am skeptical if my coworker will do his job, do I then trust that he will do the job.

 

When they are skeptical to Eastern European universities because they are afraid they have cheated, are not good team workers, may be too much sick, etc. Then they don't trust Eastern European universities.

 

 

Hahahaha. This is fucking pathetic. I'm pretty sure I've never stated anything here that would suggest that I have any experience in hiring people. I havn't said anything bombastic(unlike you). So this will be an exception. When it comes to the technical aspect I'm pretty sure that you could figure out if the applicant got anything under his belt or not. Make a case that the applicant has to solve in the interview, ask technical questions to him, read his masters, make a phone call to the previous employer, make a phonecall to his professor and so on. The other stuff (team worker, sickness) is irrelevant as that could as it is not related to his education from Serbia. It could just as easily apply for someone who graduated from Norway.

Right...

 

It's not that easy. A graduate who has cheated may be better to answer under pressure in an interview. While a person who hasn't may be weak. Just because you have cheated, doesn't mean you know nothing. Seconldy someone who have cheated a lot, may keep doing it in the job.

 

And sickness and team working skills are not irrelevant. These skills are hard to assess in an interview. Therefore employers hire from safe universities where they know what they are getting.

Endret 14. januar 2011 av Camlon

[Kubjelle]

I think this debate is pretty much over, as you are flaming me.

And actually where have I flamed you?

 

Think about this, if I am skeptical if my girlfriend will cheat on me. Do I then trust her? If you say yes. Do you think she will have the same opinion? What if I am skeptical if my coworker will do his job, do I then trust that he will do the job.

If I am skeptical that my girlfriend is cheating in me, I might still trust that she has a decent education.

 

When they are skeptical to Eastern European universities because they are afraid they have cheated, are not good team workers, may be too much sick, etc. Then they don't trust Eastern European universities.

There is no way you can relate being a bad team worker, be sick a lot to the country you take the education. Graduating from NTNU is no better insurance to those issues than graduating from Serbia.

 

It's not that easy. A graduate who has cheated may be better to answer under pressure in an interview. While a person who hasn't may be weak. Just because you have cheated, doesn't mean you know nothing. Seconldy someone who have cheated a lot, may keep doing it in the job.

 

And sickness and team working skills are not irrelevant. These skills are hard to assess in an interview. Therefore employers hire from safe universities where they know what they are getting.

Yeah right. I wouldn't be concerened if he has cheated or not. My concern would be entirely on if he is competent or not. If he is competent then you know that he hasn't cheated a lot. But I don't know how the employer thinks and you certainly don't know. I'm pretty much going back to my original statement, that you don't have any basis for your claims.

 

And the second paragraph I have addressed before.

[george85]

I don't think you got the point. I never said internship is real work. It's good to have internships under your belt, but you can't compare it to a proper architect job. I said that you only have one year of experience and it was an internshp

 

No. From all that amount of working experience, around 3 months of it, are an internships. Rest months are regular working experience (and this situation lasts to the present moment).

 

 

I may be wrong, but I don't see why doing work not that related to architecture will make your internship any better. Sure, you done some engineering work. But if an employer wants someone to do engineering work, they would hire an engineer, or use a contract. They want an architect, not an architect doing engineering work.

 

Architecture is an art, but also depends on science. You can not isolate the architectural work from the work of the structural engineer. In some rare cases, you can not do this with the water supply or sewage engineer, neither.

 

 

A wise man once said (translated to english, it looks something like this):

 

"A butterfly's wing is something amazingly beautiful, but also an engineering masterpiece.“

 

Know the engineering limits and you'll see the architectural ones.

Endret 16. januar 2011 av george85

[bas]

Why do people claim that you have to speak Norwegian to get a job? I am an engineer working for one of the large technological companies in Norway and all documentation (reports, specifications etc.) is required to be written in English. I know this is the same for every large company with international customers around here, and they are constantly employing people from all around the world who do not speak Norwegian. Companies like Snøhetta is actually trying to make it big internationally, not only in Norway, so speaking other languages than Norwegian would probably be considered a plus. I would not get to stuck up in the "you have to speak Norwegian" mentality if I were you as long as you are pretty decent in English (which, by judging by your posts, you seem to be).

[Camlon]

No. From all that amount of working experience, around 3 months of it, are an internships. Rest months are regular working experience (and this situation lasts to the present moment).

Oh... ok. You still only have one year of experience which is not enough.

 

Architecture is an art, but also depends on science. You can not isolate the architectural work from the work of the structural engineer. In some rare cases, you can not do this with the water supply or sewage engineer, neither.

 

A wise man once said (translated to english, it looks something like this):

 

"A butterfly's wing is something amazingly beautiful, but also an engineering masterpiece.“

 

Know the engineering limits and you'll see the architectural ones.

No one ever said engineering is not useful in architect work. I don't really know this, but I will presume that the education from architecture degree is sufficient for architecture, and that employers aren't really looking for someone who knows engineering, but someone who can design good looking, but also practical buildings. Engineers can always reconstruct a little bit to make sure it works in real life.

 

So I do not see what benefit you would get from doing engineering work, instead of architect work.

 

bas: I don't think you have noticed, but you are an engineer, not an architect. The situation for architecture is different from engineering. Actually engineering is quite special, since Norwegian is not required in many fields.

[george85]

So I do not see what benefit you would get from doing engineering work, instead of architect work.

 

I do both - architectural and part of the engineering one. Even if they do not need a person that will do the engineering one, still this thing has huge significance :

 

"Know the engineering limits and you'll see the architectural ones."

 

 

@ bas:

Thank you for such an encouraging advice.

Company of Snohetta is somewhat special in comparison to other Norwegian architectural companies. I heard the same thing about it’s “internationality”. Although I do not know if they do their paper work in English language?

Being the biggest Norwegian architectural company, enables them to work abroad, I guess until now, they had more valuable projects abroad than at home(I only presume, I am not sure). Maybe the problem lies with in this fact. The financial crisis struck the rest of the world pretty hard, but Norway defended herself pretty well. This means that Snohetta lost much of it’s prospective projects and customers around the globe.

 

Or am I wrong?

[bas]

I'm quite aware that I'm an engineer and not an architect, my assumption was that any large company with international ambitions or customers would practice mostly written English (in documentation etc.). I might be wrong though as I don't have any insight in any of the architectural offices.

 

I stand by my statement and would be amazed if someone with the proper experience, education, skills or otherwise would have a problem finding a job in Norway if they are good in oral and written English. In this specific case I think there are other reasons than not speaking fluent Norwegian.

 

Check Snøhettas projects under location and you'll see they have projects pretty much all over the world (even in my own home town)

Endret 16. januar 2011 av bas

[Reg2000]

I stand by my statement and would be amazed if someone with the proper experience, education, skills or otherwise would have a problem finding a job in Norway if they are good in oral and written English. In this specific case I think there are other reasons than not speaking fluent Norwegian.

 

He doesnt live in norway. He is applying for jobs in a profession where there are no shortages of qualified personnel. He has no job experience to speak of, and got his degree from a university that many employers would not trust. I dont think the language is the problem either, but his education, lack of work experience and the fact that he does not live in Norway.

 

Maybe if he had some special skill that the employer was looking for, or had a bit of working experience as an architect he would be a more interesting candidate. But as it is i'm not surprised that he is not considered the best candidate for a job as an architect over here. The biggest problem is probably that he does not live here, and because of that its unlikely that they will bother to try to bring him in for an interview if they have other qualified personnel applying for the job.

[george85]

Fair enough.

 

Thank you for all the advices and replies.

[NoviKaNa]

Have you looked at the possibility of utilizing your language skills? I assume you speak Serbian - anything else? As mentioned by other people in here, it should be possible to work here without speaking Norwegian. And although that limits your range, there might be companies in need of language and architect skills.

 

I just moved back here with my American wife, and she is somewhat in the same situation as you (although looking for work in marketing, not architecture). For her the greatest challenge is finding the right companies, and she can't just rely on listings on Finn.no and such. But once companies are identified, I'm pretty sure there are opportunities.

 

You certainly seem to have the motivation, so that's a good start! I'd suggest what other people have said - to take a Norway visit and meet with potential companies. Call and email them, ask for informational interviews, and schedule them all over a few days. Oslo is really expensive, but I don't think there's any way around it.

 

Wish you good luck in your job search!

[george85]

Thank you for the tips Novikana.

By "informational interviews" you mean unsolicited interviews? Like unsolicited job application?

[Yavel]

Take a look at:

 

http://e24.no/jobb/stillinger/filter/

 

https://www.nav.no/sbl/stillingssok/enkelt.do;jsessionid=71DE0715E1D176633ED1B5ADCE19CA6B.navnode03

[NoviKaNa]

Yea, just a chat, if you like. For them to meet you and get to know you, and for you to learn more about them. That way they can put a face to your resume, and keep you on top of mind if something were to come up.

 

Btw, if you DO find something, you shouldn't have any issues getting a work permit. As a skilled worker (one with a university education), you can take your work contract to the police and file a work authorization application, and start working from the day you file it. You won't have to wait for them to process your application. Dunno if you knew that or not, but I just found out about it myself

[george85]

thank you for the replies and links once again, both Yavel and Novikana.

Today I spent most of the money I on some medical bills for my mother. There goes my interview in Oslo.

It seem that this "northern odyssey" will have to wait a couple of years or so. I already started working on some space frame improvements, hopefully, next year will get a Phd course, and in 4-5 years, Norway here I come!

 

I owe you a beer, all of you. Although I heard that alcohol is quite expensive back there. Luckily I do not drink it at all!

 

Tusen takk!