Too difficult to find a job as an architect foreigner in Norway?

[ochi9le]

The very majority of Norwegian paychecks are paid by the resources Norway has. We have experienced a big change in the economy since the oil came to us 50-70 years ago. 45% of Norways total export is oil&gas-related. Norway is the fifth largest oil exporter and the third largest gas exporter. Because of this, the oil and gas industry historically can not get enough workforce by only using Norwegian citizens. Also, other indistries related to oil and gas (energy engineering in general) are having trouble getting enough qualified Norwegian citizens to fill out the needed workforce. This because most newly educated engineers in Norway favours the oil&gas industries because of its size.

 

When it comes to architecture, the situation for foreign applicants are different. Norway is a small country, with an estimated 4,9 million inhabitants in 2011. (Wikipedia.) You are a relatively newly educated architecht with 12 months of work experience, which honestly do not count for shit when considered against newly educated Norwegians. From what i can find online, the need for newly educated (Norwegian) architects are not great at all. In an article (http://www.universitetsavisa.no/ua_lesmer.php?kategori=nyheter&dokid=3f8afbb5296c09.43509117) from 2003 it is stated that only 3 of 60 newly educated architects that fall was hired directly after their studies. For the oil industry, the situation is the other way around. The company I work for usually signs newly educated a year before they finish their studies.

 

Seen from an employers point of view i would not consider you unless:

 

- You have at least 5 years of work experience.

- Fluency in English is a must.

- Knowledge of the Norwegian language is a GREAT advantage. Make sure you at least understand Norwegian. Most Norwegians can understand English perfectly well, so if you can udnerstand sentences in Norwegian, it will not be a problem communicating back in English for you.

- You have a Norwegian address.

 

Also, someone here stated that "we dont trust Serbian education". This is not true.

NOKUT regonition is widely accepted without any doubts at all.

Endret 7. januar 2011 av ochi9le

[george85]

thank you for such an honest reply.

 

 

Maybe I can try the other way - by doing a Phd study. I checked at AHO, and they said there will not be any new Phd studies this year. So the NTNU is the only one left, and they post the new Phd studies requests on their web site about this time of the year, January, February.

I already started working on some space frame improvements from the structural engineering point of view.

 

In any case, thank you for all useful and honest replies.

 

Hilsener til rike nord og deres folk. Godt nytt år! (Google Translate gjorde dette, ikke meg:)

Endret 7. januar 2011 av george85

[Camlon]

I disagree. Sure there probably are more engineering jobs than architect jobs, so the competition is tougher, I'm not denying that. And surely, knowing Norwegian would only help his chances. But to think that there is no way that any company would ever hire him? I'm sure if he puts his mind to it, its possible.

Sure, nothing is impossible, but the likelihod of him getting a job in Norway is very slim and he should focus elsewhere. This is not school and just because you set your mind towards something, does not mean you will succeed.

 

And remember if he fails, then he cannot live on Norwegian social security. If he really wants to work in Norway, then he should focus on making himself more attractive to employers.

[Camlon]

Also, someone here stated that "we dont trust Serbian education". This is not true.

NOKUT regonition is widely accepted without any doubts at all.

Just because it is recognized by NOKUT does not mean employers trust universities in Serbia. Most employers have no idea if students are cheating, how hard it is to get the degree and how good it is. Serbian universities are also very low ranked. I think any employer rather would hire a graduate from UCL than a graduate from Serbia.

[Kubjelle]

On what basis can you justify your claims, Camlon? (Although I've got a pretty good guess)

Endret 9. januar 2011 av Kubjelle

[Camlon]

On what basis can you justify your claims, Camlon? (Although I've got a pretty good guess)

From the fact that people attending well known foreign universities have problems getting work in Norway, because employers think Norwegian universities are safer. I'm basing it on all the foreigners in Norway not getting graduate work, because the emplyers don't trust the universities they attended.

 

Very few would just hire a Serbian graduate, because they have no idea what they are getting. And firing people is very hard.

Endret 9. januar 2011 av Camlon

[Kubjelle]

I fail to see how you can come to that conclusion. It is based upon your assumption that foreign people(who got a degree from a foreign university) got problems getting jobs in Norway. How can you deduce that it must mean that the employers don't trust the universities?

 

george85:

 

If you can get a phd-position at one of the schools in Norway, that would certainly be a good way to get you into position which enables you to do some networking.

 

The pay is so so, but from what you've said, the salary isn't too important for you.

[Camlon]

I fail to see how you can come to that conclusion. It is based upon your assumption that foreign people(who got a degree from a foreign university) got problems getting jobs in Norway. How can you deduce that it must mean that the employers don't trust the universities?

How would you explain it then? Why would employers tell me that they trust Norwegian graduates because they know what they will get.

[Kubjelle]

Tradition? Prejudice towards foreigners? Language?

 

I don't claim that I know the answer, I'm just asking what you are basing yours on. I'm not saying that you are wrong, but based on what you are basing it on, I'm saying that your basis is too weak. ()

 

I do think that people who have studied in Norway has got an easier task when it comes to finding a job in Norway. I just don't think that it is because the employers don't trust the foreign universities.

Endret 9. januar 2011 av Kubjelle

[ochi9le]

Just because it is recognized by NOKUT does not mean employers trust universities in Serbia. Most employers have no idea if students are cheating, how hard it is to get the degree and how good it is. Serbian universities are also very low ranked. I think any employer rather would hire a graduate from UCL than a graduate from Serbia.

 

The first sentence there regarding NOKUT recognition meaning employers trust universities in Serbia is the case. NOKUT means that we as employers trust and recognize the degree as it was our own. And, as someone already have pointed out here, you are not able to give sources to your claims. My experience within this field is directly tied to my position in a leading service provider in the oil industry in Norway. I currently work on NOKUT regonitions in our company. We have several foreigners working with foreign degrees, certified by NOKUT. So your claims here are the opposite of what is reality in the industry today.

 

Also, as "Kubjelle" says here, there are other things coming into consideration when hiring. As I said in my original post - his education is not the issue in this case. His address, passport and to some degree prejudice is.

Endret 10. januar 2011 av ochi9le

[george85]

I did not want to start a fight in here. I perfectly understood everything, and gave thanks to every reply. There is no reason for lifting up the tension.

 

 

 

About the "cheating" part of the story. Yes, I must admit, that this thing exist on faculties in my country. Now, I did not say that I cheated, but that there are people that cheat on their exams. Some say that this is because of the nation itself, some say that it is due to the poverty, and low wages of professors (so professors are taking money from the students, and giving them a positive marks in return).

From my point of view, the main reason is that getting an honest, fair and square degree on most of the public faculties is Serbia, is very difficult.

 

Each exam is consisted of two parts - part one is usually related to practical written tasks. Part two is theory, and comes usually 7 days after the part one. Although it can come sooner or later than this, depends. When you pass the first part, you proceed to the part two. If you fall down on the part two, then you have the right to take a try again in a month or so. If you fall down again, then you need to pass the first part again, and then the second one.

Now, there are professors who are not allowing this "2 times first part rule". They demand that the first part valids only 1 time. So each time you fall down on the second part, you get back to the beginning - from the first part.

You might ask yourself, why would anyone fall down so many times? Well, most of the exams embrace-demand one year or half year knowledge. Although I had one with 2 years knowledge, but this was an exception. This means that when you sit down to take an exam, you need to have all the knowledge from the last 6 months or one year in your head.

The criteria for passing the exams is mostly 2/3. This means that from 3 tasks or 3 questions, you need to have 2 ones correct. Still there are some exceptional professors who demand 3/3. This means you need to have 3 questions out of 3 in order to pass the exams. I had only one of these 3/3 to be honest.

 

The only things that are allowed on both parts are pencil, paper, rubber, ruler, calculator and similar. Books are not allowed, nor notebooks, nothing. In my primary school, the calculator was not allowed! You needed to do all by hand, even calculate the square roots! Although there are some exams where certain papers with charts and tables are allowed. For example a chart with the ratio of number of Steel bars to cross-sectional area of the bars.

 

If you consider all this things, and if you want to pass all your exams fair and square, with no cheating, then you do not have a private life during studies, all you do is study. There is a common joke about "studying and working" in Serbia. We always make laughts when watching American TV shows, how their students study university and work in the after time. In my country this is not possible. You simply do not have the time for that. You spend your summer, winter, Easter holidays in learning. If my exam date is in June, I need to start preparing it in March, in order to complete all the exercises and theory.

Now, you can work and study, but then you will study for 10-12 years. And you can start preparing the exam in June, but that also leads to studying 10-12 years.

 

To make it clear, I am not supporting this system and saying that it is the best. The system was invented in Russia, and some of eastern european countries still have it, Cuba and China also. This educational system is madness, and generally creates either splendid experts, or lunatics, or students that decide to pay for the exams or cheat, or students that abandon the faculties. For example, with all the cheatings and frauds and exams passed by paying, the ratio of students that get a degree (successfully finish their studies), and the ones that enlist/start/enter to the faculty is 1/3 on my faculty. Some other faculties like Electro engineering, or Pharmacy... have ratio of 1/5.

 

My generation was the last want to attend the faculties by this "old" system. One year after us, Bologna process was signed, and some new rules emerged, a lot of things were threw away, amount of needed knowledge shrank and so on. Also there are private faculties, and the situation is quite different at their place, as they work under the westerner educational systems.

 

 

 

Nevertheless like I said, I got the answer on my question, and I thank you on that.

Endret 10. januar 2011 av george85

[Kaarerekanraadi]

I think you have to live here to get anywhere. A striking amount of architects are unemployed in Norway now as well.

[Camlon]

Just because it is recognized by NOKUT does not mean employers trust universities in Serbia. Most employers have no idea if students are cheating, how hard it is to get the degree and how good it is. Serbian universities are also very low ranked. I think any employer rather would hire a graduate from UCL than a graduate from Serbia.

 

The first sentence there regarding NOKUT recognition meaning employers trust universities in Serbia is the case. NOKUT means that we as employers trust and recognize the degree as it was our own. And, as someone already have pointed out here, you are not able to give sources to your claims. My experience within this field is directly tied to my position in a leading service provider in the oil industry in Norway. I currently work on NOKUT regonitions in our company. We have several foreigners working with foreign degrees, certified by NOKUT. So your claims here are the opposite of what is reality in the industry today.

 

Also, as "Kubjelle" says here, there are other things coming into consideration when hiring. As I said in my original post - his education is not the issue in this case. His address, passport and to some degree prejudice is.

I know you may have some bias towards NOKUT, but NOKUT recognition doesn't mean that a Serbian graduate and a UCL or a NTNU graduate will be viewed the same. Employers are not machines and they will be skeptical if they see a graduate from Serbia, because they don't know if they have cheated, if the degree is worth anything, if he will fit with the company structure. I know employers and it's the truth.

 

Just read his post. Students were cheating at his university and he could have done the same despite the NOKUT recognition. It makes absolutly no sense that they would trust that he hasn't cheated or that the university is preparing him for the job.

 

Tradition? Prejudice towards foreigners? Language?

Norwegians do not care about traditions.

 

If prejudice was the only reason, then it would be equally hard for a Norwegian graduate and a graduate from abroad when language is accountanted for. That is not the case.

 

Let me ask you a different question. Why would a Norwegian employer trust graduates from a very low ranked university which they know nothing about? It makes no sense. Why would they not be skeptical? Would they just assume the student haven't cheated, that he will fit with the company and the Norwegian structure because it has a NOKUT recognition?

[george85]

Mentioning "cheating", even if you did not directly say "they did not know if YOU cheated or not", was not very polite from you Camlon.

 

You are still continuing to raise the tension in this topic, and there is no reason for that.

 

All the previous advices gave me an answer to my question. I understood everything, and gave thanks to every reply.

 

End of story.

[Camlon]

Mentioning "cheating", even if you did not directly say "they did not know if YOU cheated or not", was not very polite from you Camlon.

Well, it might be impolite in some countries. But it's the turth. They don't know if you cheated or not and I mean in the direct form. You say that you haven't cheated and I believe you. But if I was an employer I might be concerned that you have cheated because of the university you attended. You said that you could cheat if you wanted to, so there is a real possibility.

 

But I'm not really answering you anymore. You have got your answer. I'm talking to the other people who think that employers view all universities equally just because they have a NOKUT recognition. That is bull! I think the reason we are getting this argument is because many Norwegians tend to not admit their real feelings, because of the political correctness in the Norwegian society. The truth is, when a Norwegian employer sees a graduate from Serbia then he will be concerned and be skeptical of hiring that person. Much more, than if he sees a graduate from a good university in France or Switzerland.

Endret 10. januar 2011 av Camlon

[Kaarerekanraadi]

Be aware that most norwegian have been more or less brainwashed into hating serbs beacause of the media and the 90' wars. Could be a problem, albeit unfair.

 

I know that Serbia being the main part of Yugoslavia, have a very good educational system, but there will be paperwork.

[george85]

understood.

I must agree with you on the last one Camlon. I felt insulted, and did not think rationally.

Thank you for an honest answer Kaarerekanraadi.

 

Thanks to all the help and advices.

Endret 11. januar 2011 av george85

[Kubjelle]

I know you may have some bias towards NOKUT, but NOKUT recognition doesn't mean that a Serbian graduate and a UCL or a NTNU graduate will be viewed the same. Employers are not machines and they will be skeptical if they see a graduate from Serbia, because they don't know if they have cheated, if the degree is worth anything, if he will fit with the company structure. I know employers and it's the truth.

 

Just read his post. Students were cheating at his university and he could have done the same despite the NOKUT recognition. It makes absolutly no sense that they would trust that he hasn't cheated or that the university is preparing him for the job.

 

 

Give me a break.

 

No one has claimed that a graduate from a serbian university and a graduate from NTNU is viewed as the same(on equal terms). Please refrain from straw man rhetorics.

 

The employer might not know of the extensive cheating, the employer might know but still recognize the university or at least the person who is applying for the job. Its pretty easy to figure out if the person applying for the job is any good or not. Your basis is far from good enough to make up a well-based statement. Let me say it like this; I'd rather trust someone who works in a big company and works directly with matters concerning employing, than someone studying in New Zealand whose only basis is stuff he heard from others.

 

 

Tradition? Prejudice towards foreigners? Language?

Norwegians do not care about traditions.

 

If prejudice was the only reason, then it would be equally hard for a Norwegian graduate and a graduate from abroad when language is accountanted for. That is not the case.

 

Let me ask you a different question. Why would a Norwegian employer trust graduates from a very low ranked university which they know nothing about? It makes no sense. Why would they not be skeptical? Would they just assume the student haven't cheated, that he will fit with the company and the Norwegian structure because it has a NOKUT recognition?

Norwegians do not care about traditions? You don't think that it is plausible that a company is so used to only hiring people from Norway that they don't consider hiring anyone from another country?

 

If prejudice was the only reason, then it would be harder for a foreigner rather than a Norwegian graduate to get the same job. Which I'm pretty sure is the case.

 

I'm not saying that the employer won't be skeptical, I'm just saying I don't think that the employer thinks that the education of the applicant can't be trusted. And I'm pretty sure that it's pretty easy to figure out if the applicant is the real deal or not.

[Camlon]

Give me a break.

 

No one has claimed that a graduate from a serbian university and a graduate from NTNU is viewed as the same(on equal terms). Please refrain from straw man rhetorics.

 

The employer might not know of the extensive cheating, the employer might know but still recognize the university or at least the person who is applying for the job. Its pretty easy to figure out if the person applying for the job is any good or not. Your basis is far from good enough to make up a well-based statement. Let me say it like this; I'd rather trust someone who works in a big company and works directly with matters concerning employing, than someone studying in New Zealand whose only basis is stuff he heard from others.

First off, you can't base it off one person. One person is not representive for all employers and a lot of people say something and do something else due to political correctness. Also, I rather trust the people I have talked to, than the people you claim you have talked to.

 

If they are not viewed the same, then why? It's certinally not because NTNU and other Norwegian universities provides only top graduates and they have so few limited positions that they hve to turn down excelent candidates. It's because many employers would be skeptical and if they hire wrong person they will lose a lot of money. That means, they don't trust Serbian education.

 

And my point is that they don't know the quality or if they cheated. They may not know about the extensive cheating, but most employers know that cheating is quite normal in many third world countries. Yes, the person might be excelent in other areas, hence they will still hire him. But his university is a negative factor before he get work experience. There is no way you can deny that!

 

Norwegians do not care about traditions? You don't think that it is plausible that a company is so used to only hiring people from Norway that they don't consider hiring anyone from another country?

No, generally the ones I have talked to, don't hire foreigners because they don't know what they are getting. If they hire someone from NTNU they know what they will get, and they are still quite certain if they hire someone from Switzerland. Most employers have no clue about the quality of Serbian graduates and if they hire wrong person they will lose a lot of money, especially since it is very hard to fire people in Norway.

 

If prejudice was the only reason, then it would be harder for a foreigner rather than a Norwegian graduate to get the same job. Which I'm pretty sure is the case.

Yes, but if prejudice was the only reason, then it would be equally hard for a foreigner with a Norwegian education, as a foreigner with a education from Serbia. I'm quite sure that's not the case.

 

I'm not saying that the employer won't be skeptical, I'm just saying I don't think that the employer thinks that the education of the applicant can't be trusted. And I'm pretty sure that it's pretty easy to figure out if the applicant is the real deal or not.

Bullshit. You obviously have very little experience hiring. It's very hard to see if an employee is a good employee and if you hire wrong people, your business is going to lose money. There are lots of pitfals which you may not see in the interview. Even if they have cheated, you may not discover that in the interview, because they still know something and they prepare themselves. They may not fit in the company structure, or keep "cheating" in the company. They may be terrible team workers or get sick all the time. How are you supposed to figure out that in a 60 min interview?

 

And being skeptical means they don't trust Serbian education. You are just afraid of saying it directly.

Endret 12. januar 2011 av Camlon

[Kaarerekanraadi]

Well, Camlon. He has worked for a real company in Holland for a full year. A phonecall would soon clearify what they do and what he did there.