Snart Jul igjen!

[G]

Ser ikke ut til at sammenfallende planeter passer med 24. desember til å beskrive julestjernen som lyste over Betlehem.

http://astroclub.tau.ac.il/ephem/PlanetsCo...ndex.php?Year=0

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Bethlehem

[IHS]

Hvem sier at stjernen de så var en planet ?

Endret 13. desember 2009 av IHS

[G]

eh.. Flere planeter i konjuksjon. Det er vel bare en av mange teorier om julestjernen. Men du kan jo lese lenken og stoffet der om den, så ser du flere teorier.

 

Men en konjuksjon forklarer ihvertfall ganske bra ett flere dager langt vedvarende sterkt lysende himmelobjekt, som en ikke ser lenger, fordi planeter går i bane..

 

EDIT: her har du en Astronomisk konjuksjon forklart

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjunction

 

 

EDIT2: Har funnet bedre tekst om emnet. Og det stoffer finner dere i neste post. DA er det jeg skrev tidligere, som ikke er så interessant lenger i spoiler nedenfor:

 

Beklager sen levering av nedenforstående tekst. Har ikke prioritert oppgaven høyt nok.

Lenke: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_conjunc...est_conjunction

Greatest conjunction

 

Greatest conjunction is a conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn at or near their opposition to the Sun. In this scenario, Jupiter and Saturn will occupy the same position in right ascension on three separate occasions over a period of a few months.

 

The so-called "Star of Bethlehem" — thought to have appeared c. 7 BC — was theorized to be a greatest conjunction; and some went so far as to assert that it was an occultation of Saturn by Jupiter, with the two planets appearing to merge into a single object as seen from Earth. However such an event did not take place at historic times. At the greatest conjunction in 7 BC, which is said to be the "Star of Bethlehem",[1] the minimum distance between Jupiter and Saturn was around 1 degree, this is twice the Moon's diameter. The next occultation of Saturn by Jupiter will take place in 7541.

 

There is no obvious period for the occurrence of greatest conjunctions: the last greatest conjunctions took place in 1682/83, 1821 (only in right ascension), 1940/41 and 1981, while the next one will take place in the year 2238/39.

 

Tar tid dette. Her sies det plutselig 6 BC:

Greatest conjunction is a conjunction of the Jupiter and Saturn at or near their opposition to the Sun. In this scenario, Jupiter and Saturn will occupy the same position in right ascension on three separate occasions over a period of a few months.

 

The so-called "Star of Bethlehem" — appeared in 6 BC — was theorized to be a greatest conjunction; and some went so far as to assert that it was an occultation of Saturn by Jupiter, with the two planets appearing to merge into a single object as seen from Earth. The next occultation of Saturn by Jupiter will take place in 7541 AD.

 

Ennå en lenke med forklaring:

Possible birthdate of Jesus, according to appearance of a very bright triple conjunction of the royal star Jupiter and Saturn in the sign of Pisces (= land in the west) in May until December of that year since 854 years, with a retrogradation and stationing in 12 November, 7 BC.

 

Endret 13. desember 2009 av G

[SirEmanon]

Er ikke fødselsdagen til Johannes satt til den 24. juni av den katolske kirken? Kan dette være gjort for å passe inn med Jesus fødsel?

Her finnes det jo flere teorier. Noen mener han er født på våre andre på høsten. Dermed vil dette medføre at Jesus også er født på våren eller høsten. (Kan mene å huske at Jødene setter ut vin i påsken for å minnes fødselsdagen til Johannes (?)).

Men likevel er det jo klare spor at julen er en gammel tradisjon som kom lenge før man startet å feire den kristne julen.

[G]

Kilde:

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Star_of_Bethlehem

 

Hele teksten er i spoiler eller i lenken ovenfor.

 

Wiki: Star of Bethlehem

For other uses, see Star of Bethlehem (disambiguation).

 

The Star of Bethlehem, also called the Christmas Star, [1] is a star in Christian tradition that revealed the birth of Jesus to the magi, or "wise men", and later led them to Bethlehem. According to the Gospel of Matthew, the magi were men "from the east" who were inspired by the appearance of the star to travel to Jerusalem. [2] There they met King Herod of Judea, and asked where the king of the Jews had been born. Herod then asked his advisers where a messiah could be born. They replied Bethlehem, a nearby village, and quoted a prophecy by Micah. While the magi were on their way to Bethlehem, the star appeared again. Following the star, which stopped above the place where Jesus was born, the magi found Jesus with his mother, paid him homage, worshipped him and gave gifts. They then returned to their "own country". [3]

 

Adoration of the Magi by Florentine painter Giotto di Bondone (1267-1337). The Star of Bethlehem is shown as a comet above the child. Giotto witnessed an appearance of Halley's Comet in 1301.

 

Many Christians see the star as a miraculous sign to mark the birth of the christ (or messiah). Some theologians claimed that the star fulfilled a prophecy, known as the Star Prophecy. In modern times, astronomers have proposed various explanations for the star. A nova, a planet, a comet, an occultation, and a conjunction (gathering of planets) have all been suggested.

 

Many scholars question the historical accuracy of the story and argue that the star was a fiction created by the author of the Gospel of Matthew. [4]

 

The subject is a favorite at planetarium shows during the Christmas season, [5] although the Biblical account suggests that the visit of the magi took place at least several months after Jesus was born. [nb 1] The visit is traditionally celebrated on Epiphany (January 6) in Western Christianity [6] and on Christmas (December 25) in Eastern Christianity.

 

Contents:

1. Biblical narrative

2. Interpretations and explanations

3. Determining the year Jesus was born

4. See also

5. Notes

6. References

7. External links

1. Biblical narrative

 

The Gospel of Matthew states that Magi arrived at the court of Herod in Jerusalem and told the king of a star which signified the birth of the King of the Jews:

 

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, saying, Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East [or at its rising [7] ] and have come to worship Him. When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born. [8]

 

 

Adoration of the Magi, Chartres Cathedral, by Jehan de Beauce, France, 16th century.

 

Herod was "troubled", not because of the appearance of the star, but because the magi told him that a "king of the Jews" had been born, [9] which he understood to refer to the Messiah, a leader of the Jewish people whose coming was foretold in Old Testament prophecy. So he asked his advisors where the Messiah would be born. [10] They answered Bethlehem, birthplace of King David, and quoted the prophet Micah. [nb 2] The king passed this information along to the magi. [11]

 

Then Herod, when he had secretly called the wise men, determined from them what time the star appeared. And he sent them to Bethlehem and said, Go and search carefully for the young Child, and when you have found Him, bring back word to me, that I may come and worship Him also. When they heard the king, they departed; and behold, the star which they had seen in the East went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceedingly great joy. [12] Dalessia was here Matthew's account suggests that the magi knew from the star that the "king of the Jews" had already been born even before they arrived in Jerusalem. The magi presented Jesus with gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. [13] In a dream, the magi were warned not to return to Jerusalem, so they "left for their own country by another road". [14] When Herod realized that he had been tricked, he ordered the execution of all male children in Bethlehem age 2 and younger, based on the information the magi had given him concerning the time the star first appeared. [nb 3] Joseph, warned in a dream, took his family to Egypt for their safety. [15] The Gospel links the escape to a verse from the Old Testament, interpreted as a prophecy: "Out of Egypt I called My Son." [16] The Old Testament version refers to the departure of the Hebrews from Egypt under Moses, so the quote suggests that Matthew saw the life of Jesus as recapitulating the story of the Jewish people, with Judea representing Egypt and Herod standing in for pharaoh. [nb 4] After Herod died, God called Joseph and his family back from Egypt, [17] and they settled in to Nazareth in Galilee. [18] This is said to be a fulfillment of, "He will be called a Nazorean," (NRSV) a prophecy of unknown origin. [nb 5]

 

2. Interpretations and explanations

2. 1. Fulfillment of prophecy

 

The ancients believed that astronomical phenomena were connected to terrestrial events. Miracles were routinely associated with the birth of important people, including the Hebrew patriarchs, as well as Greek and Roman heroes. [19]

 

The Star of Bethlehem is traditionally linked to the Star Prophecy in the Book of Numbers:

 

I see Him, but not now;

I behold Him, but not near;

A Star shall come out of Jacob;

A Scepter shall rise out of Israel,

And batter the brow of Moab,

And destroy all the sons of tumult. [20]

 

Although evidently intended to refer to the immediate future, since the kingdom of Moab had long ceased to exist, by the time the Gospels were being written it had become widely seen as a reference to the coming of a Messiah. [21] It was, for example, cited by Josephus, who believed it referred to Emperor Vespasian. [22] Origen, one of the most influential early Christian theologians, connected this prophecy with the Star of Bethlehem:

 

If, then, at the commencement of new dynasties, or on the occasion of other important events, there arises a comet so called, or any similar celestial body, why should it be matter of wonder that at the birth of Him who was to introduce a new doctrine to the human race, and to make known His teaching not only to Jews, but also to Greeks, and to many of the barbarous nations besides, a star should have arisen? Now I would say, that with respect to comets there is no prophecy in circulation to the effect that such and such a comet was to arise in connection with a particular kingdom or a particular time; but with respect to the appearance of a star at the birth of Jesus there is a prophecy of Balaam recorded by Moses to this effect: There shall arise a star out of Jacob, and a man shall rise up out of Israel. [23]

 

According to Origen, the magi may have decided to travel to Jerusalem when they "conjectured that the man whose appearance had been foretold along with that of the star, had actually come into the world". [24]

 

The magi are sometimes called "kings" because of the belief that they fulfill prophecies in Isaiah and Psalms concerning a journey to Jerusalem by gentile kings. [25] Isaiah mentions gifts of gold and incense. [26] In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament probably used by Matthew, these gifts are given as gold and frankincense, [27] similar to Matthew's "gold, frankincense, and myrrh." [13] The gift of myrrh symbolizes mortality, according to Origen. [24]

 

The Septuagint uses the word magi to refer to an association of scholars in Babylon described in the Book of Daniel. [28] Daniel, who in the book is selected chief magus, [29] was considered "one of the greatest prophets" by the Jews, according to Josephus. [30]

 

While Origen argued for a naturalistic explanation, John Chrysostom viewed the star as purely miraculous: "How then, tell me, did the star point out a spot so confined, just the space of a manger and shed, unless it left that height and came down, and stood over the very head of the young child? And at this the evangelist was hinting when he said, "Lo, the star went before them, till it came and stood over where the young Child was." [31]

2. 2. Astronomical object

 

The night sky as it appeared looking south from Jerusalem on Nov. 12, 7 BC, 6 p.m. to 9:30 p.m.

 

According to modern translations, the magi told Herod that they saw the star "at its rising", [7] which suggests that they observed an astronomical object. The traditional translation of this phrase was "in the East," [32] that is, when the magi were is still resident in their eastern homelands. This interpretation is less likely because the Greek word for "east" used in this passage is singular, yet plural in those passages where it refers to the magi's homelands. [33]

 

In 1614, German astronomer Johannes Kepler determined that a series of three conjunctions of the planets Jupiter and Saturn occurred in the year 7 BC. [5] Although conjunctions were important in astrology, Kepler was not thinking in astrological terms. He argued (incorrectly) that a planetary conjunction could create a nova, which he linked to the Star of Bethlehem. [5] Modern calculations show that there was gap of nearly a degree between the planets, so these conjunctions were not visually impressive. [34] An ancient almanac has been found in Babylon which covers the events of this period, but does not indicate that the conjunctions were of any special interest. [34] [35]

 

Other writers suggest that the star was a comet. [34] Halley's Comet was visible in 12 BC and another object, possibly a comet or nova, was seen by Chinese and Korean stargazers in about 5 BC. [34] [36] This object was observed for over seventy days with no movement recorded. [34] Ancient writers described comets as "hanging over" specific cities, just as the Star of Bethlehem was said to have "stood over" the "place" where Jesus was (the town of Bethlehem). [37]

Another Star of Bethlehem candidate is Uranus, which passed close to Saturn in 9 BC and Venus in 6 BC. This is unlikely because Uranus moves very slowly and is barely visible with the naked eye. [38]

 

A zodiac from a 6th-century mosaic at a synagogue in Beit Alpha, Israel

 

A recent hypothesis states that the star of Bethlehem was a supernova or hypernova occurring in the nearby Andromeda Galaxy. Although supernovae have been detected in Andromeda, it is extremely difficult to detect a supernova remnant in another galaxy, let alone obtain an accurate date of when it occurred. [39]

2. 3. Astrological event

 

Although magi (Greek μαγοι) is usually translated as "wise men," in this context it probably means "astronomer" or "astrologer". [40] The involvement of astrologers in the story of the birth of Jesus was problematic for the early Church, because they condemned astrology as demonic; a widely cited explanation was that of Tertullian, who suggested that astrology was allowed 'only until the time of the Gospel'. [41]

 

The magi linked the appearance of a star to the birth of a "king of the Jews." In Hellenistic astrology, Jupiter was the king planet and Regulus (in the constellation Leo) was the king star. As they traveled from Jerusalem to Bethlehem, the star "went before" the magi and then "stood over" the place where Jesus was. In astrological interpretations, these phrases are said to refer to retrograde motion and to stationing, i.e., Jupiter appeared to reverse course for a time, then stopped, and finally resumed its normal progression. [42]

 

In 3-2 BC, there was a series of seven conjunctions, including three between Jupiter and Regulus and a strikingly close conjunction between Jupiter and Venus near Regulus on June 17, 2 BC. "The fusion of two planets would have been a rare and awe-inspiring event", according to a paper by Roger Sinnott. [43] This event however occurred after the generally accepted date of 4 BC for the death of Herod. Since the conjunction would have been seen in the west at sunset it could not have led the magi south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. [44]

 

Astronomer Michael Molnar has proposed a link between a double occultation of Jupiter by the moon in 6 BC in Aries and the Star of Bethlehem, particularly the second occultation on April 17. [45] This event was quite close to the sun and would have been difficult to observe, even with a small telescope, [46] which had not yet been invented. Occultations of planets by the moon are quite common, but Firmicus Maternus, an astrologer to Roman Emperor Constantine, wrote that an occultation of Jupiter in Aries was a sign of the birth of a divine king. [45] [47] "When the royal star of Zeus, the planet Jupiter, was in the east this was the most powerful time to confer kingships. Furthermore, the Sun was in Aries where it is exalted. And the Moon was in very close conjunction with Jupiter in Aries", Molnar wrote. [nb 6]

2. 4. Historical fiction

 

Many scholars, seeing the Gospel Nativity stories as later apologetic accounts created to establish the Messianic status of Jesus, regard the Star of Bethlehem as nothing more than a pious fiction; [48] there are several aspects of Matthew's account which give reason to doubt that an actual historical event is being portrayed. [49] Matthew is the only one of the four gospels which mentions either the Star of Bethlehem or the magi. The author of the Gospel of Mark, considered by modern text scholars to be the oldest of the Gospels, [50] [nb 7] does not appear to be aware of the Bethlehem nativity story. [51] A character in the Gospel of John states that Jesus is from Galilee, and not Bethlehem. [52] The Gospels often described Jesus as "of Nazareth," [53] but never as "of Bethlehem". Some scholars suggest that Jesus was born in Nazareth and that the Bethlehem nativity narratives reflect a desire by the Gospel writers to portray his birth the fulfillment of a prophecy in the Book of Micah concerning a Bethlehem birth. [54]

 

Matthew's description of the miracles and portents attending the birth of Jesus can be compared to stories concerning the birth of Augustus (63 BC). [nb 8] Linking a birth to the first appearance of a star was consistent with a popular belief that each person's life was linked to a particular star. [55] Magi and astronomical events were linked in the public mind by the visit to Rome of a delegation of magi at the time of a spectacular appearance of Halley's Comet in AD 66, [37] about the time the Gospel of Matthew was being composed. This delegation was led by King Tiridates of Armenia, who came seeking confirmation of his title from Emperor Nero. Ancient historian Dio Cassius wrote that, "The King did not return by the route he had followed in coming," [37] a line echoed in Matthew's account. [56]

 

"Adoration of the Magi", by Jean Fouquet. This illumination is from Heures d'Étienne Chevalier. France, 15th century. The Star of Bethlehem can be seen in the top right. The soldiers and castle in the background may represent the Battle of Castillon (1453).

3. Determining the year Jesus was born

See also: Chronology of Jesus

 

One factor in interpreting the Star of Bethlehem is the year in which Jesus was born. Matthew wrote that Jesus was born when Herod was king. According to Josephus, Herod died shortly after a lunar eclipse. This is usually identified as the eclipse of March 13, 4 BC. Coins issued by Herod's successors show that they dated their reigns as beginning in 4 BC. Although the mainstream view is that Herod died that year, [57] a recent journal article argues that Herod died in 1 BC. [58]

 

According to Matthew's account, Jesus must have been born sometime between the first appearance of the Star of Bethlehem and when the Magi arrived in Herod's court. As Herod ordered the execution of boys age 2 and younger, the star must have made its first appearance within the previous two years. There was, however, no Roman census in 6-4 BC: the Census of Quirinius took place in 6-7 AD. Some scholars have suggested that the census Luke referred to could have been another event, such as a mass oath that took place under Augustus, [5] or to an earlier, unrecorded census. [59] However, according to Raymond Brown, most critical scholars believe that Luke was simply mistaken. [60]

 

Luke wrote that Jesus was "about thirty" when he began his ministry in AD 29. [61] Following Luke, early Christian writers gave his date of birth as either 3 BC or 2 BC. [62]

4. See also

 

* Biblical magi

 

The Bible actaully states that after King Herod ordered the Magi to report back to him once they found where Jesus was born so he can worship him too. When King Herod realized he had been tricked he sent order to kill all boys 2 years old and younger. Consider the birth of Christ, the time it took the Magi to travel in a caravan from their lands to King Herod, the time it took for the Magi to travel to Bethlehem and the time it took for King Herod to realize he had been tricked. This time is not stated in the Bible and it very well could have been years.

5. Notes

 

1. Matthew 2:11. When the magi arrive, Jesus is a "child" (paidon) in a house, no longer an infant (brephos) in a manger, as when the shepherds arrive in Luke. (Patterson, Dorothy Kelly, Women's Evangelical Commentary: New Testament, p. 20) As he is with his mother, the forty day confinement period prescribed by Jewish law has already passed.

2. Matthew 2:5-6. Matthew's version is a conflation of Micah 5:2 and 2 Samuel 5:2.

3. Matthew 2:16 This is presented as a fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:15 and echoes the killing of firstborn by pharaoh in Exodus 11:1-12:36.

4. "An Exodus motif prevails in the entire chapter." (Kennedy, Joel, Recapitulation of Israel, p. 132, http://books.google.com/books?id=byeQn2T93...ewish#PPA132,M1, retrieved 2009-07-04 ) The story of the Jewish people began with God showing Abraham the stars in the sky.(Genesis 15:5)

5. Judges 13:5-7 is sometimes identified as the source for Matthew 2:23 because Septuagint ναζιραιον (Nazirite) resembles Matthew's Ναζωραῖος (Nazorean). But few scholars accept the view that Jesus was a Nazirite. Matthew's plural attribution "spoken by the prophets" may acknowledge the lack of a specific source. (France, R. T., The Gospel of Matthew, pp. 92-93.) Although Matthew understands a "Nazorean" to be a person from Nazareth, the form is irregular. In Acts 25:5, a Nazorean is a follower of Jesus, i.e. a Christian. So it may derive from a Semitic word that was later conflated with Nazareth, for example נצר (netser), meaning "branch", which was used as a messianic title on the basis of Isaiah 11:1. (Bromiley, Geoffrey W., International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, pp. 499-500.) Mark uses the more regular form Ναζαρηνός (Nazarene, of Nazareth). (Mark 14:67)

6. This set of planetary conditions reoccurs every sixty years.

7. The traditional view, presented by Augustine and others, was that Matthew was written first and that Mark was redacted from Matthew. (Perkins, Pheme, (2007) Introduction to the synoptic gospels, p. 55)

8. The god Apollo was said to have conceived with Augustus' mother and there was a "public portent" indicating that a king of Rome would soon be born. (Suetonius, C. Tranquillus,, 94., "The Divine Augustus", The Lives of the Twelve Caesars, http://www.princeton.edu/~champlin/cla219/augiesuet.htm#1 ).

 

 

6. References

 

1. A Christmas Star for SOHO, http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast16May_1.htm, retrieved 2008-07-04

2. Matthew 2:1-2

3. Matthew 2:11-12

4. For example, Paul L. Maier, "Herod and the Infants of Bethlehem", in Chronos, Kairos, Christos II, Mercer University Press (1998), 171; Geza Vermes, The Nativity: History and Legend, London, Penguin, 2006, p22; E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus, 1993, p.85; Aaron Michael Adair, "Science, Scholarship and Bethlehem's Starry Night", Sky and Telescope, Dec. 2007, pp.26-29 (reviewing astronomical theories).

5. ^ John, Mosley. "Common Errors in 'Star of Bethlehem' Planetarium Shows". http://www.ips-planetarium.org/planetarian...rrors_xmas.html. Retrieved 2008-06-05.

6. Ratti, John, First Sunday after the Epiphany, http://www.episcopalchurch.org/sermons_tha...772_ENG_HTM.htm, retrieved 2008-06-05

7. ^ Matthew 2:2. This is the New Revised Standard Version.

8. Matthew 2:1-4 New King James Version (1982).

9. Thomas G. Long, Matthew (Westminster John Knox Press, 1997), page 18.

10. Matthew 2:4.

11. Matthew 2:8.

12. Matthew 2:7-10.

13. ^ Matthew 2:11

14. Matthew 2:12.

15. Matthew 2:13-14

16. Matthew 2:16 The OT version is at Hosea 11:1.

17. Matthew 2:10-21

18. Matthew 2:23

19. Vermes, Geza (December 2006), "The First Christmas", History Today 56 (12): 23-29, http://www.historytoday.com/MainArticle.as...p;amid=30235606, retrieved 2009-07-04

20. Numbers 24:17

21. Freed, Edwin D. (2001), The Stories of Jesus' Birth: A Critical Introduction, Continuum International, p. 93

22. Josephus, Flavius, The Wars of the Jews, http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2850, retrieved 2008-06-07 Translated by: William Whiston.

Lendering, Jona, Messianic claimants, http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messi...laimants13.html, retrieved 2008-06-05

23. Adamantius, Origen. "Contra Celsum". http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.vi.ix.i.lx.html. Retrieved 2008-06-05. , Book I, Chapter LIX.

24. ^ Adamantius, Origen. "Contra Celsum". http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf04.vi.ix.i.lxi.html. . Book I, Chapter LX.

25. France, R.T., The Gospel according to Matthew: an introduction and commentary, p. 84. See Isaiah 60:1-7 and Psalms 72:10.

26. Isaiah 60:6

27. Isaiah 60:6 (Septuagint)

28. White, William, (1903) Notes and Queries, Volume 107, p. 346. "Magi" appears in the singular form, μάγους, in Daniel 1:20 and Daniel 2:2.

29. Daniel 5:11

30. Josephus, Flavius. "Antiquities of the Jews". http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/ant-10.htm. Translated by: William Whiston. Book 10, chapter 11, paragraph 7.

For Daniel's messianic prophecy, see Daniel 9:24-27

31. Schaff, Philip (1886), St. Chrysostom: Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, New York: Christian Literature Publishing Co., p. 36, http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.VI_1.html, retrieved 2009-07-04

32. Matthew 2:2

33. Nolland, John, (2005) The Gospel of Matthew: a commentary on the Greek text, p. 109.

34. ^ Mark, Kidger. "Chinese and Babylonian Observations". http://www.astrosurf.com/comets/Star_of_Be...ish/Chinese.htm. Retrieved 2008-06-05.

35. For the contrary view, i.e. that the almanac does show the conjunction was considered significant, see Ashgrove, Triple Conjunction of Jupiter and Saturn, http://www.public.iastate.edu/~lightandlife/triple.htm, retrieved 2008-06-05

36. Colin Humphreys, 'The Star of Bethlehem', in Science and Christian Belief 5 (1995), 83-101.

37. ^ Jenkins, R.M. (June 2004). "The Star of Bethlehem and the Comet of AD 66". Journal of the British Astronomy Association (114): pp. 336-43. http://www.bristolastrosoc.org.uk/uploaded...rnalJenkins.pdf. Retrieved 2009-07-04.

38. Kidger, Mark (2005). Astronomical Enigmas: Life on Mars, the Star of Bethlehem, and Other Milky Way Mysteries. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press. pp. 60.

39. Tipler, F.J.,The Star of Bethlehem: a Type Ia/Ic Supernova in the Andromeda Galaxy. Dept. of Mathematics and Dept. of Physics, Tulane University; New Orleans, LA 70118. 20 March 2005.

40. Raymond Edward Brown, An Adult Christ at Christmas: Essays on the Three Biblical Christmas Stories, Liturgical Press (1988), p. 11.

41. S. J. Tester, A History of Western Astrology, (Boydell & Brewer, 1987), page 111-112.

42. Molnar, Michael R., Revealing the Star of Bethlehem, http://www.eclipse.net/~molnar/index.html, retrieved 2009-07-04

43. Sinnott, Roger, "Thoughts on the Star of Bethlehem", Sky and Telescope, December 1968, pp. 384-386.

44. Kidger, Mark (2005), Astronomical Enigmas: Life on Mars, the Star of Bethlehem, and Other Milky Way Mysteries, Johns Hopkins University Press, pp. 63, ISBN 9780801880261

45. ^ Molnar, Michael R. (1999), The Star of Bethlehem: The Legacy of the Magi, Rutgers University Press, ISBN 0-8135-2701-5, http://www.eclipse.net/~molnar/index.html

46. Kidger, Mark (December 5, 2001), "The Star of Bethlehem", Cambridge Conference Correspondence, http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc120501.html, retrieved 2007-07-04

47. Stenger, Richard (December 27, 2001), Was Christmas star a double eclipse of Jupiter?, http://edition.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/12/...erup/index.html, retrieved 2009-07-04

48. Markus Bockmuehl, This Jesus (Continuum International, 2004), page 28; Vermes, Géza (2006-11-02). The Nativity: History and Legend. Penguin Books Ltd. p. 22. ISBN 0-14-102446-1. ; Sanders, Ed Parish (1993). The Historical Figure of Jesus. London: Allen Lane. p. 85. ISBN 0-7139-9059-7. ; Believable Christianity: A lecture in the annual October series on Radical Christian Faith at Carrs Lane URC Church, Birmingham, October 5, 2006

49. Brown, Raymond E. (1993), The Birth of the Messiah, Anchor Bible Reference Library, p. 188

50. Witherington, Ben (2001), The Gospel of Mark: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary, Eerdmans, p. 8

France, R. T. (2002), The Gospel of Mark: A Commentary on the Greek Text, Eerdmans, p. 16

Head, Peter M. (1997), Christology and the Synoptic Problem: An Argument for Markan priority, Cambridge: Cambridge Univ. Press, ISBN 0-521-58488-4, http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Tyndale/staff...Christology.htm, retrieved 2009-07-04 For a case against Markan priority, see Peabody, David B.; Cope, Lamar; McNicol, Allan J. (2002), One Gospel From Two: Mark's Use of Matthew and Luke, Trinity Press International, ISBN 1-56338-352-7, http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/3015_3211.pdf, retrieved 2009-07-04

51. Mark 6:1-4

52. See John 1:46, John 7:41-42, and John 7:52.

53. In Greek, Nazarēnos (Nazarene) or Nazōraios (Nazorean).

54. Nikkos Kokkinos, "The Relative Chronology of the Nativity in Tertullian", in Ray Summers, Jerry Vardaman and others, eds., Chronos, Kairos, Christos II, Mercer University Press (1998), page 125-6.

Funk, Robert W. and the Jesus Seminar, The Acts of Jesus: The Search for the Authentic Deeds of Jesus, HarperSanFrancisco, 1999, ISBN 0-06-062979-7. pp. 499, 521, 533.

Paul L. Maier, "Herod and the Infants of Bethlehem", in Chronos, Kairos, Christos II, Mercer University Press (1998), 171.

For Micah's prophecy, see Micah 5:2.

55. Nolland, p. 110.

Pliny the Elder, Natural History, II vi 28.

56. Matthew 2:12

57. Timothy David Barnes, “The Date of Herod’s Death,” Journal of Theological Studies ns 19 (1968), 204-19

P. M. Bernegger, “Affirmation of Herod’s Death in 4 B.C.,” Journal of Theological Studies ns 34 (1983), 526-31.

58. Steinmann, Andrew (2009). "When Did Herod the Great Reign?". Novum Testamentum. pp. 1-29. http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bril...000001/art00001.

59. Ronald Syme, The Augustan Aristocracy, (Oxford University Press, 1989) pp. 340-341.

60. Raymond Brown, An Adult Christ at Christmas, (Liturgical Press, 1988), p. 17: "most critical scholars acknowledge a confusion and misdating on Luke's part."

For example, Dunn, James Douglas Grant, Jesus Remembered, (Eerdmans, 2003) p344. Similarly, Erich S. Gruen, 'The expansion of the empire under Augustus', in The Cambridge ancient history Volume 10, p157.

Geza Vermes, The Nativity, Penguin 2006, p. 96.

W.D Davies and E. P. Sanders, 'Jesus from the Jewish point of view', in The Cambridge History of Judaism ed William Horbury, vol 3: the Early Roman Period, 1984

Anthony Harvey, A Companion to the New Testament (Cambridge University Press 2004), p221.

Meier, John P., A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus. Doubleday, 1991, v. 1, p. 213.

Brown, Raymond E. The Birth of the Messiah: A Commentary on the Infancy Narratives in Matthew and Luke. London: G. Chapman, 1977, p. 554.

A. N. Sherwin-White, pp. 166, 167.

Fergus Millar Millar, Fergus (1990). "Reflections on the trials of Jesus". A Tribute to Geza Vermes: Essays on Jewish and Christian Literature and History (JSOT Suppl. 100) [eds. P.R. Davies and R.T. White]. Sheffield: JSOT Press. pp. 355-81. repr. in Millar, Fergus (2006), "The Greek World, the Jews, and the East", Rome, the Greek World and the East (University of North Carolina Press) 3: 139-163

61. Luke 3:23.

62. Birth of Christ Recalculated, Maranatha Church, Inc, 1998, http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/birthofchrist.html, retrieved 2009-07-04

Footnote 4, Bethlehem Star.

 

 

7. External links

 

* Case, Shirley Jackson, "Jesus: A New Biography" (Gorgias Press LLC: New Ed., 2006). ISBN 1593334753.

* Jenkins, R.M., "The Star of Bethlehem and the Comet of 66AD", Journal of the British Astronomy Association, June 2004, 114, pp. 336-43. This article argues that the Star of Bethlehem is a historical fiction influenced by the appearance of Halley Comet in AD 66.

* Molnar, Michael R., Revealing the Star of Bethlehem. Proposes that the "star" was an occultation of Jupiter bythe moon in 6 BC.

* Griffith Observatory, a video on the star presented on MSNBC's Mysteries of the Universe.

* Matthew 2 Biblical text on the magi and the star.

* Star of Bethlehem Bibliography. Provides an extensive bibliography with Web links to online sources.

* Video: Star of Bethlehem by Professor Konradin Ferrari d'Occhieppo

 

 

 

UTDRAG fra tekst nevnt ovenfor:

Many Christians see the star as a miraculous sign to mark the birth of the christ (or messiah). Some theologians claimed that the star fulfilled a prophecy, known as the Star Prophecy. In modern times, astronomers have proposed various explanations for the star. A nova, a planet, a comet, an occultation, and a conjunction (gathering of planets) have all been suggested.

 

Many scholars question the historical accuracy of the story and argue that the star was a fiction created by the author of the Gospel of Matthew. [4]

 

The subject is a favorite at planetarium shows during the Christmas season, [5] although the Biblical account suggests that the visit of the magi took place at least several months after Jesus was born. [nb 1] The visit is traditionally celebrated on Epiphany (January 6) in Western Christianity [6] and on Christmas (December 25) in Eastern Christianity.

 

 

The Gospel links the escape to a verse from the Old Testament, interpreted as a prophecy: "Out of Egypt I called My Son." [16] The Old Testament version refers to the departure of the Hebrews from Egypt under Moses, so the quote suggests that Matthew saw the life of Jesus as recapitulating the story of the Jewish people, with Judea representing Egypt and Herod standing in for pharaoh. [nb 4] After Herod died, God called Joseph and his family back from Egypt, [17] and they settled in to Nazareth in Galilee. [18] This is said to be a fulfillment of, "He will be called a Nazorean," (NRSV) a prophecy of unknown origin

 

 

The ancients believed that astronomical phenomena were connected to terrestrial events. Miracles were routinely associated with the birth of important people, including the Hebrew patriarchs, as well as Greek and Roman heroes. [19]

 

The Star of Bethlehem is traditionally linked to the Star Prophecy in the Book of Numbers

 

 

Although evidently intended to refer to the immediate future, since the kingdom of Moab had long ceased to exist, by the time the Gospels were being written it had become widely seen as a reference to the coming of a Messiah. [21] It was, for example, cited by Josephus, who believed it referred to Emperor Vespasian. [22] Origen, one of the most influential early Christian theologians, connected this prophecy with the Star of Bethlehem

 

 

 

According to Origen, the magi may have decided to travel to Jerusalem when they "conjectured that the man whose appearance had been foretold along with that of the star, had actually come into the world".

 

The gift of myrrh symbolizes mortality, according to Origen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

According to modern translations, the magi told Herod that they saw the star "at its rising", [7] which suggests that they observed an astronomical object. The traditional translation of this phrase was "in the East," [32] that is, when the magi were is still resident in their eastern homelands. This interpretation is less likely because the Greek word for "east" used in this passage is singular, yet plural in those passages where it refers to the magi's homelands. [33]

 

In 1614, German astronomer Johannes Kepler determined that a series of three conjunctions of the planets Jupiter and Saturn occurred in the year 7 BC. [5] Although conjunctions were important in astrology, Kepler was not thinking in astrological terms. He argued (incorrectly) that a planetary conjunction could create a nova, which he linked to the Star of Bethlehem. [5] Modern calculations show that there was gap of nearly a degree between the planets, so these conjunctions were not visually impressive. [34] An ancient almanac has been found in Babylon which covers the events of this period, but does not indicate that the conjunctions were of any special interest. [34] [35]

 

Other writers suggest that the star was a comet. [34] Halley's Comet was visible in 12 BC and another object, possibly a comet or nova, was seen by Chinese and Korean stargazers in about 5 BC. [34] [36] This object was observed for over seventy days with no movement recorded. [34] Ancient writers described comets as "hanging over" specific cities, just as the Star of Bethlehem was said to have "stood over" the "place" where Jesus was (the town of Bethlehem). [37]

Another Star of Bethlehem candidate is Uranus, which passed close to Saturn in 9 BC and Venus in 6 BC. This is unlikely because Uranus moves very slowly and is barely visible with the naked eye.

 

 

 

A recent hypothesis states that the star of Bethlehem was a supernova or hypernova occurring in the nearby Andromeda Galaxy. Although supernovae have been detected in Andromeda, it is extremely difficult to detect a supernova remnant in another galaxy, let alone obtain an accurate date of when it occurred.

 

 

INTERESSANT INFO:

 

Many scholars, seeing the Gospel Nativity stories as later apologetic accounts created to establish the Messianic status of Jesus, regard the Star of Bethlehem as nothing more than a pious fiction; [48] there are several aspects of Matthew's account which give reason to doubt that an actual historical event is being portrayed. [49] Matthew is the only one of the four gospels which mentions either the Star of Bethlehem or the magi. The author of the Gospel of Mark, considered by modern text scholars to be the oldest of the Gospels, [50] [nb 7] does not appear to be aware of the Bethlehem nativity story. [51] A character in the Gospel of John states that Jesus is from Galilee, and not Bethlehem. [52] The Gospels often described Jesus as "of Nazareth," [53] but never as "of Bethlehem". Some scholars suggest that Jesus was born in Nazareth and that the Bethlehem nativity narratives reflect a desire by the Gospel writers to portray his birth the fulfillment of a prophecy in the Book of Micah concerning a Bethlehem birth. [54]

 

Matthew's description of the miracles and portents attending the birth of Jesus can be compared to stories concerning the birth of Augustus (63 BC). [nb 8] Linking a birth to the first appearance of a star was consistent with a popular belief that each person's life was linked to a particular star. [55] Magi and astronomical events were linked in the public mind by the visit to Rome of a delegation of magi at the time of a spectacular appearance of Halley's Comet in AD 66, [37] about the time the Gospel of Matthew was being composed. This delegation was led by King Tiridates of Armenia, who came seeking confirmation of his title from Emperor Nero. Ancient historian Dio Cassius wrote that, "The King did not return by the route he had followed in coming," [37] a line echoed in Matthew's account.

 

 

3. Determining the year Jesus was born

See also: Chronology of Jesus

 

One factor in interpreting the Star of Bethlehem is the year in which Jesus was born. Matthew wrote that Jesus was born when Herod was king. According to Josephus, Herod died shortly after a lunar eclipse. This is usually identified as the eclipse of March 13, 4 BC. Coins issued by Herod's successors show that they dated their reigns as beginning in 4 BC. Although the mainstream view is that Herod died that year, [57] a recent journal article argues that Herod died in 1 BC. [58]

 

According to Matthew's account, Jesus must have been born sometime between the first appearance of the Star of Bethlehem and when the Magi arrived in Herod's court. As Herod ordered the execution of boys age 2 and younger, the star must have made its first appearance within the previous two years. There was, however, no Roman census in 6-4 BC: the Census of Quirinius took place in 6-7 AD. Some scholars have suggested that the census Luke referred to could have been another event, such as a mass oath that took place under Augustus, [5] or to an earlier, unrecorded census. [59] However, according to Raymond Brown, most critical scholars believe that Luke was simply mistaken. [60]

 

Luke wrote that Jesus was "about thirty" when he began his ministry in AD 29. [61] Following Luke, early Christian writers gave his date of birth as either 3 BC or 2 BC. [62]

4. See also

 

* Biblical magi

 

The Bible actaully states that after King Herod ordered the Magi to report back to him once they found where Jesus was born so he can worship him too. When King Herod realized he had been tricked he sent order to kill all boys 2 years old and younger. Consider the birth of Christ, the time it took the Magi to travel in a caravan from their lands to King Herod, the time it took for the Magi to travel to Bethlehem and the time it took for King Herod to realize he had been tricked. This time is not stated in the Bible and it very well could have been years.

 

 

 

Although magi (Greek μαγοι) is usually translated as "wise men," in this context it probably means "astronomer" or "astrologer". [40] The involvement of astrologers in the story of the birth of Jesus was problematic for the early Church, because they condemned astrology as demonic; a widely cited explanation was that of Tertullian, who suggested that astrology was allowed 'only until the time of the Gospel'. [41]

 

The magi linked the appearance of a star to the birth of a "king of the Jews." In Hellenistic astrology, Jupiter was the king planet and Regulus (in the constellation Leo) was the king star. As they traveled from Jerusalem to Bethlehem, the star "went before" the magi and then "stood over" the place where Jesus was. In astrological interpretations, these phrases are said to refer to retrograde motion and to stationing, i.e., Jupiter appeared to reverse course for a time, then stopped, and finally resumed its normal progression. [42]

 

In 3-2 BC, there was a series of seven conjunctions, including three between Jupiter and Regulus and a strikingly close conjunction between Jupiter and Venus near Regulus on June 17, 2 BC. "The fusion of two planets would have been a rare and awe-inspiring event", according to a paper by Roger Sinnott. [43] This event however occurred after the generally accepted date of 4 BC for the death of Herod. Since the conjunction would have been seen in the west at sunset it could not have led the magi south from Jerusalem to Bethlehem. [44]

 

Astronomer Michael Molnar has proposed a link between a double occultation of Jupiter by the moon in 6 BC in Aries and the Star of Bethlehem, particularly the second occultation on April 17. [45] This event was quite close to the sun and would have been difficult to observe, even with a small telescope, [46] which had not yet been invented. Occultations of planets by the moon are quite common, but Firmicus Maternus, an astrologer to Roman Emperor Constantine, wrote that an occultation of Jupiter in Aries was a sign of the birth of a divine king. [45] [47] "When the royal star of Zeus, the planet Jupiter, was in the east this was the most powerful time to confer kingships. Furthermore, the Sun was in Aries where it is exalted. And the Moon was in very close conjunction with Jupiter in Aries", Molnar wrote. [nb 6]

 

Kommentar: Det ble mye utheving, men så var det også en meget interessant artikkel med mye informasjon som en må ta hensyn til.

Endret 13. desember 2009 av G

[IHS]

Jesus Kristus ble født 6 måneder etter døperen Johannes (Elisabet og Sakarjas sønn)

 

NT > "da Elisabet var i sjette måned, ble engelen Gabriel sendt fra Gud til en by i Galilea som het Nasaret, til en jomfru som var lovet bort til Josef, en mann av Davids ætt. Jomfruens navn var Maria."

 

Siden døperen Johannes ble født 24. juni er 24./25. desember riktig dato å feire.

 

Er ikke fødselsdagen til Johannes satt til den 24. juni av den katolske kirken? Kan dette være gjort for å passe inn med Jesus fødsel?

Her finnes det jo flere teorier. Noen mener han er født på våre andre på høsten. Dermed vil dette medføre at Jesus også er født på våren eller høsten. (Kan mene å huske at Jødene setter ut vin i påsken for å minnes fødselsdagen til Johannes (?)).

Men likevel er det jo klare spor at julen er en gammel tradisjon som kom lenge før man startet å feire den kristne julen.

Døperen Johannes ble født 9 måneder etter at hans mor Elisabet ble gravid.

Elisabet ble gravid rett etter at, hennes mann Sakarjas preste-tjeneste var over, i september måned.

 

Wikipedia: Zechariah Feast

September 23 - Roman Catholic

September 5 - Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran

 

NT > When his time of service was completed, he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. "The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people." In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Endret 13. desember 2009 av IHS

[Juleniss1]

Døperen Johannes ble født 9 måneder etter at hans mor Elisabet ble gravid.

Elisabet ble gravid rett etter at, hennes mann Sakarjas preste-tjeneste var over, i september måned.

 

Wikipedia: Zechariah Feast

September 23 - Roman Catholic

September 5 - Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran

Og igjen, det reiser spørsmålet om når denne Sakarias prestetjeneste var over. Linken din forteller ingenting om sammenhengen for å feire han denne dagen.

 

Og hvordan vet vi at Elisabet var gravid i akkurat 9 måneder? Hvor står det? Du vet at barn kan bli født en god stund for sent eller for tidlig. De fine bibelsitatene dine er mer et bevis på at dette er datoer kirken har bestemt hvor de passer best, mer enn noe annet.

[McDuck_]

Døperen Johannes ble født 9 måneder etter at hans mor Elisabet ble gravid.

Elisabet ble gravid rett etter at, hennes mann Sakarjas preste-tjeneste var over, i september måned.

 

Wikipedia: Zechariah Feast

September 23 - Roman Catholic

September 5 - Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran

Og igjen, det reiser spørsmålet om når denne Sakarias prestetjeneste var over. Linken din forteller ingenting om sammenhengen for å feire han denne dagen.

 

Og hvordan vet vi at Elisabet var gravid i akkurat 9 måneder? Hvor står det? Du vet at barn kan bli født en god stund for sent eller for tidlig. De fine bibelsitatene dine er mer et bevis på at dette er datoer kirken har bestemt hvor de passer best, mer enn noe annet.

 

I all verden, har det noe å si? Poenget er å feire selve hendelsen.

[Juleniss1]

I all verden, har det noe å si? Poenget er å feire selve hendelsen.

Så hva i all verden har det med mitt innlegg å gjøre?

[IHS]

Jesus Kristus ble født 6 måneder etter døperen Johannes (Elisabet og Sakarjas sønn)

 

NT > "da Elisabet var i sjette måned, ble engelen Gabriel sendt fra Gud til en by i Galilea som het Nasaret, til en jomfru som var lovet bort til Josef, en mann av Davids ætt. Jomfruens navn var Maria."

 

Siden døperen Johannes ble født 24. juni er 24./25. desember riktig dato å feire.

 

Er ikke fødselsdagen til Johannes satt til den 24. juni av den katolske kirken? Kan dette være gjort for å passe inn med Jesus fødsel?

Her finnes det jo flere teorier. Noen mener han er født på våre andre på høsten. Dermed vil dette medføre at Jesus også er født på våren eller høsten. (Kan mene å huske at Jødene setter ut vin i påsken for å minnes fødselsdagen til Johannes (?)).

Men likevel er det jo klare spor at julen er en gammel tradisjon som kom lenge før man startet å feire den kristne julen.

Døperen Johannes ble født 9 måneder etter at hans mor Elisabet ble gravid.

Elisabet ble gravid rett etter at, hennes mann Sakarjas preste-tjeneste var over, i september måned.

 

Wikipedia: Zechariah Feast

September 23 - Roman Catholic

September 5 - Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran

 

NT > When his time of service was completed, he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. "The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people." In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Og igjen, det reiser spørsmålet om når denne Sakarias prestetjeneste var over. Linken din forteller ingenting om sammenhengen for å feire han denne dagen.

 

Og hvordan vet vi at Elisabet var gravid i akkurat 9 måneder? Hvor står det? Du vet at barn kan bli født en god stund for sent eller for tidlig. De fine bibelsitatene dine er mer et bevis på at dette er datoer kirken har bestemt hvor de passer best, mer enn noe annet.

Sakarias prestetjeneste varte en uke i september. NT sitatene viser at tidspunktet for Jesus Kristi fødsel ikke kan plasseres hvor som helst, da tidspunktet forholder seg til en rekke andre begivenheter.

[Juleniss1]

Sakarias prestetjeneste varte en uke i september.

Igjen: Hvordan vet vi det?

 

NT sitatene viser at tidspunktet for Jesus Kristi fødsel ikke kan plasseres hvor som helst, da tidspunktet forholder seg til en rekke andre begivenheter.

En rekke andre begivenheter som først ble plassert på kalenderen ved hjelp av Jesus' fødselsdato. Man skal være ganske ignorant for å bli overbevist av sirkelargumentasjonen din.

[G]

IHS, nevner at det forholder seg til en rekke andre begivenheter. Den er grei nok, men da er det viktig å få så mange av disse begivenhetene fram på bordet som vi i dag kan være i stand til.

 

Det er ingen lett oppgave, fordi en person som studerer emnet kan komme med sin utdypning, og en annen person og en tredje person igjen kan ha andre gode poeng som bør være med i regnestykket. Dessuten er det ikke helt sikkert en finner ett nøyaktig svar.

 

Er det noen kommentarer til kilden jeg fant for noen få innlegg siden? Kunne vært artig å se folks reaksjoner på hvor troverdig informasjonen kan være. Argumenteringen høres i lyden å være plausibel. Men igjen, så kan det jo hende at det finnes tilleggsinformasjon.

 

Alle de overnevnte personer kan jo også bomme på enkelte ting.

 

Forventer nesten en kommentar fra Monkybone på emnet. Hvilke som helst andre bidrag er også velkomne.

Endret 13. desember 2009 av G

[IHS]

Jesus Kristus ble født 6 måneder etter døperen Johannes (Elisabet og Sakarjas sønn)

 

NT > "da Elisabet var i sjette måned, ble engelen Gabriel sendt fra Gud til en by i Galilea som het Nasaret, til en jomfru som var lovet bort til Josef, en mann av Davids ætt. Jomfruens navn var Maria."

 

Siden døperen Johannes ble født 24. juni er 24./25. desember riktig dato å feire.

 

Er ikke fødselsdagen til Johannes satt til den 24. juni av den katolske kirken? Kan dette være gjort for å passe inn med Jesus fødsel?

Her finnes det jo flere teorier. Noen mener han er født på våre andre på høsten. Dermed vil dette medføre at Jesus også er født på våren eller høsten. (Kan mene å huske at Jødene setter ut vin i påsken for å minnes fødselsdagen til Johannes (?)).

Men likevel er det jo klare spor at julen er en gammel tradisjon som kom lenge før man startet å feire den kristne julen.

Døperen Johannes ble født 9 måneder etter at hans mor Elisabet ble gravid.

Elisabet ble gravid rett etter at, hennes mann Sakarjas preste-tjeneste var over, i september måned.

 

Wikipedia: Zechariah Feast

September 23 - Roman Catholic

September 5 - Eastern Orthodox and Lutheran

 

NT > When his time of service was completed, he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. "The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people." In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

Og igjen, det reiser spørsmålet om når denne Sakarias prestetjeneste var over. Linken din forteller ingenting om sammenhengen for å feire han denne dagen.

 

Og hvordan vet vi at Elisabet var gravid i akkurat 9 måneder? Hvor står det? Du vet at barn kan bli født en god stund for sent eller for tidlig. De fine bibelsitatene dine er mer et bevis på at dette er datoer kirken har bestemt hvor de passer best, mer enn noe annet.

Sakarias prestetjeneste varte en uke i september. NT sitatene viser at tidspunktet for Jesus Kristi fødsel ikke kan plasseres hvor som helst, da tidspunktet forholder seg til en rekke andre begivenheter.

Igjen: Hvordan vet vi det?

Wikipedia: The duties at the temple in Jerusalem alternated between each of the families that had descended from those appointed by King David (1 Chronicles 23:1-19). The offering of incense was one of the most solemn parts of the daily worship and, owing to the large number of eligible priests, no priest could hope to perform the task more than once during his lifetime. Luke states that during the week when it was the duty of his family to serve at the temple in Jerusalem, the lot for performing the incense offering had fallen to Zechariah.

Endret 13. desember 2009 av IHS

[Gayatri-mantra]

Julefeiringen er nok blitt mer en tradisjon enn èn religiøs handling. For mange handler det mer om en samling av kjente og kjære, god mat og drikke, musikk og selvfølgelig gaver. Det er i mindre grad blitt en religiøs handling. Hva dato angår, så ja - det er ikke Jesus sin egentlige fødselsdato - men er blitt endret på slik at det ikke skulle bli en altfor stor overgang for hedningene i kristendommens start å skifte religion.

[Juleniss1]

Wikipedia: The duties at the temple in Jerusalem alternated between each of the families that had descended from those appointed by King David (1 Chronicles 23:1-19). The offering of incense was one of the most solemn parts of the daily worship and, owing to the large number of eligible priests, no priest could hope to perform the task more than once during his lifetime. Luke states that during the week when it was the duty of his family to serve at the temple in Jerusalem, the lot for performing the incense offering had fallen to Zechariah.

Du er rett og slett utrolig.

[weebl]

Jeg og min familie feirer jul, men må selv si at den feiringa vi har sammen med veldig mange nordmenn er mere av den gamle midtvintersfest sorten enn kristen jul.

 

vi utveksler gaver med slekt og venner, spiser MASSE god mat og har god drikke ved siden av,

jul er i mine øyne en veldig fin tradisjon spesielt her oppe i nord, det lar oss ha noe å glede oss til midt oppi den kalde, mørke og triste vintern.

 

men må si jeg ikke er noen fan av kommersialiseringen av jula, for min del så er gavene bare en bonus. (ikke at jeg klager da )

[freke]

Senere har han blitt "morphet" til denne røde, tjukke, hvitskjeggede figuren vi er vandt med idag. Norske nisser derimot er noe helt annet. I mer overtroiske tider trodde man gjerne at det bodde en nisse på hver gård. Denne nissen passet på gården, gårdsdyrene, avlingene og gårdsboerne så lenge de husket å gi ham mat under julen. Derav historien om nissen med sin julegrøt.

Gårdsnissen på sin side er en videreføring av haugbonden (eller mer direkte; forfedredyrkelse), som man ofret til. Så det er en direkte videreføring (i ny og moderne drakt) av forfedredyrkingen "å sette ut grøt til nissen".

[Pokey]

IGJEN - Bibelen er overhodet ingen kilde som er vits å i det hele tatt prøve å få andre til å gidde å bry seg om. Try again, IHS.

[IHS]

IGJEN - Bibelen er overhodet ingen kilde som er vits å i det hele tatt prøve å få andre til å gidde å bry seg om. Try again, IHS.

Det ble stilt spørsmål om når på året Jesus Kristus ble født.

Da er Bibelen en grei kilde å bruke, Pokey

Endret 16. desember 2009 av IHS

[SirEmanon]

Har ikke satt meg mye inn i teorier om hva tid jesus ble født. Men som jeg har nevnt tidligere finnes det mange teorier på dette. Blant annet at det ved jesus fødsel var dyr/sauer ute på marka og det er ikke normalt for denne årstiden. Samt at vi har flere kristne som forholder seg til andre data en det den katolske kirke opplyser. Vi har f. eks. denne. Nå viser jeg ikke til linken for at dette er dokumentert sannhet, men kun for å vise at her finnes flere teorier. Så spørsmålet deg Iesus Hominem Salvator; Her vises det til bibelen, hvem har rett? Og hvorfor?

Gjør et sveip over nett, så vil du finne…… mange teorier.....

 

Det vi med sikkerhet vet, er at det er 365 sjanser for at Jesus er født på en av dagene i løpet av et år. Hvis han i det hele tatt er født (som en person)?

 

Så til slutt vil jeg si meg enig i Monkybone; I all verden, har det noe å si? Men selvfølgelig med forskjellig tilnærming av feiring av jul. For meg er det kun tradisjon og en fin sammenkomst av familie og venner. En feiring av Midvintersdagen (Jólablót). Ingen religiøs overtone.