Talmud, vanlig kritikk - Noen jøder her inne som kan svare?

[toth]

Auburn 21b (p. 149-150). The commands of the rabbis are more important than the commands of the Bible. Whosoever disobeys the rabbis deserves death and will be punished by being boiled in hot execrement in hell.

 

 

Baba Mezia 59b. (p. 353). A rabbi debates God and defeats Him. God admits the rabbi won the debate.

 

 

Erubin 21b (p. 150). "Rabbi Akiba said to him ‘Give me some water to wash my hands.’ ‘It will not suffice for drinking.’ the other complained, ‘Will it suffice for washing your hands? What can I do? The former replied, when for neglecting the words of the Rabbis one deserves death? It is better that I myself should die than that I transgress against the opinion of my colleagues." [This was the ritual hand washing that Jesus condemned in Matthew 15: 1-9].

 

 

Moed Kattan 17a (p. 107). If a Jew is tempted to do evil he should go to a city where he is not known and do the evil there.

 

 

Pesahim 111a (p. 571). It is forbidden for dogs, women or palm trees to pass between two men, nor may others walk between dogs, women or palm trees. Special dangers are involved if the women are menstruating or sitting at a crossroads.

 

 

Shabbath 41a. (p. 190). The law regulating the rule for how to urinate in a holy way is given.

 

Gittin 69a (p. 329). To heal his flesh a Jew should take dust that lies within the shadow of an outdoor toilet, mix it with honey and eat it.

 

 

Gittin 57b (p.266). Recounts how four billion Jews were killed by the Romans in the city of Bethar.

 

 

Gittin 58a (pp. 269-270). Recounts how sixteen million Jewish children were wrapped in scrolls and burned alive by the Romans.

 

 

Yebamoth 63a (p.42O). States that Adam had sexual intercourse with all the animals in the Garden of Eden.

 

 

Yebamoth 63a (p.420). Declares that agriculture is the lowest of occupations.

 

 

Erubin 41 b (p.287). Those who suffer great poverty or persecution by the Romans or who have a bowel disease or a bad wife, will not go to hell.

 

 

Pesahim 1 13b (p. 584). He who stays unmarried, does not wear phylacteries (two small black leather cubes) or doesn’t wear shoes, cannot go to heaven.

 

 

Pesahim 113b (p. 583). This passage states that hate is commanded by God: "…is it permitted to hate him?" (i.e. an enemy or Israel). "Again if there are witnesses that he had committed wrong, then all indeed hate him! It is a duty to hate him..."

 

 

Sanhedrin 58b. (p.398). If a heathen (Gentile) hits a Jew (the Gentile must be killed. hitting a Jew is the same as hitting God.

 

 

Yebamoth 98a (pp.670-671). All Gentile children are animals.

 

 

Abodah Zarali 36b (p. 176). Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.

 

 

Abodah Zarali 22a-22b (pp. 113-114). Gentiles prefer sex with cows.

 

 

Abodab Zarah 67b (p. 325). "The vessels of Gentiles, do they not impart a worsened flavor to the food cooked in them?"

 

 

Abodah Zarah 70a (p.336). The question was asked of the rabbi whether some wine stolen in Pumbeditha might be used or if it might be defiled due to the fact that the thieves might have been Gentiles (a Gentile touching wine would make the wine unclean). The rabbi states that the wine is permissible for Jewish use because the majority or the thieves in the place where the wine was stolen are Jews.

 

 

Hagigah 27a (p.171). No rabbi can ever go to hell.

 

 

Yoma 22~23a (p.103). No one can be a true Jewish scholar unless he takes vengeance on his enemies.

 

 

Baba Bathra 16b (p.83). "Yet happy is he whose children are males and alas for him whose children are females."

 

 

Sanhedrin 1OOb (p. 681). "A daughter is a vain treasure to her father: through anxiety on her account he cannot sleep at night As a minor, lest she be seduced; in her majority, lest she play the harlot; as an adult lest she not be married; if she marries lest she bear no children, if she grows old, lest she engages in witchcraft...woe to him whose children are females."

 

 

Menahoth 43b-44a (p. 264). A Jewish man is obligated to say the following prayer every day: Thank you God for not making me a Gentile, a woman or a slave.

 

 

Berakoth 43b (pp. 266-267). A Jewish scholar should not talk to women in the street, not even his wife or, daughter or sister. He must also not wear perfume or patched sandals, or take long strides when he is walking (long strides will hurt his eyesight and he must not walk at night unless he is going to an appointment with a rabbi. Also, he must not walk stiffly (because to do so is to "push against the heels of the divine presence").

 

 

Sanhedrin 57a (p. 389). A Jew need not pay a Gentile (‘Cuthean") the wages owed him for work.

 

 

Baba Kamma 37b (p.211). "If an ox of a" Israelite gores an ox of a Canaanite there is no liability; but if an ox of a Canaanite gores an ox of an lsraelite...the payment is to be in full."

 

 

Baba Mezia 24a (p. 151). If a Jew finds an object lost by a Gentile ("heathen’) it does not have to be returned. (Affirmed also in Baba Kamma 113b, p. 666).

 

 

Sanhedrin 76a (p.517). God will not spare a Jew who "marries his daughter to an old man or takes a wife for his infant son or returns a lost article to a Cuthean..."

 

 

Sanhedrin 57a (p. 388). When a Jew murders a Gentile (Cuthean"). there will be no death penalty What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.

 

 

Baba Kamma 37b (p.213). Gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."

 

 

Baba Kamma I 13a (p. 664). Jews may use lies (subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile.

 

 

Abodah Zarah 26a (p.130). Gentile women want to poison Jewish children.

 

 

Sanhedrin 55b (p.376). A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

 

 

Sanhedrin 54b (p.371). A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

 

 

Kethuboth 11b (p.58). "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

 

 

Yebamoth 59b (p. 397) "A woman who had intercourse with a beast is eligible to marry a Jewish priest. A woman who has sex with a demon is also eligible to marry a Jewish priest.

 

 

Gittin 69b (p.329). To heal the disease of pleurisy ("catarrh") a Jew should "take the excrement of a white dog and knead it with balsam, but if he can possibly avoid it he should not eat the dog’s excrement as it loosens the limbs."

 

 

Shabbath 86a-86b (p.409). Because Jews are holy they do not have sex during the day unless the house can be made dark. A Jewish scholar can have sex during the day if he uses his garment like a tent to make it dark.

 

 

Kethuboth 61b (p.369). The frequency with which a Jewish male may have sex is listed as follows: "For men of independence, every day. For laborers, twice a week, for ass-drivers once a week; for camel-drivers, once in thirty days; for sailors, once in six months."

 

 

Abodah Zarah 17a (p.87). States that there is not a whore in the world that Rabbi Eleazar has not had sex with.

 

 

Gittin 7Oa (p.333). "The Rabbis taught On coming from a privy (outdoor toilet) a man should not have sexual intercourse till he has waited long enough to walk half a mile, because the demon of the privy is with him for that time; if he does, his children will be epileptic."

 

 

Sanhedrin 106a (p.725). Says Jesus’ mother was a whore: "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b (p. 504) it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

 

 

The passage from Sanhedrin 106 also contains gloating over the early age at which Jesus died: "Hast thou heard how old Balaam (Jesus) was? He replied: It is not actually stated but since it is written, Bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days it follows that he was thirty-three or thirty-four years old."

 

 

Sanhedrin 43a (p.281). Says Jesus ("Yeshu" and in footnote #6, Yeshu "the Nazarene") was executed because he practiced sorcery.

 

 

Sanhedrin 90a (p.680).Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books." see footnote #9) will have no portion in the world to come.

 

 

Shabbath 116a (p.569). Jews must burn the books of the Christians. i.e., the New Testament. See footnote #6.

 

 

Rosh Hashanah 17a (pp. 64-65). Christians ("minim") and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations (see footnote #11 on p.64 for the definition of minim).

 

 

Baba Mezia I 14a-1 14b. Only Jews are human ("Only ye are designated men"). Also see Kerithoth 6b (p.45) under the sub-head, "Oil of Anointing" and Berakoth 58a (pp.361-362) in which Gentile women are designated animals (she-asses).

 

 

Gittin 57a (p.261). Jesus ("sinners of Israel." see footnote 14) is being boiled in hot excrement.

 

Jeg er ganske uvitende på området, men finner vers typisk som dette ofte brukt i kritikk av Talmud. Er det noen jøder eller andre med kunnskap som kan forsvare/forklare disse tingene?

 

Lærer jødene i fullt alvor at det er OK å ha sex med 3-åringer og lik? At ingen Rabbi noensinne kan havne i helvete? At jøder med god samvittighet kan stjele hva de vil fra ikke-jøder?

[analkløe]

Jeg er ganske uvitende på området, men finner vers typisk som dette ofte brukt i kritikk av Talmud. Er det noen jøder eller andre med kunnskap som kan forsvare/forklare disse tingene?

 

Lærer jødene i fullt alvor at det er OK å ha sex med 3-åringer og lik? At ingen Rabbi noensinne kan havne i helvete? At jøder med god samvittighet kan stjele hva de vil fra ikke-jøder?

 

Hmm, Slik jeg har forstått det så er talmud like sentral i jødenes lære som NT er i de kristnes lære.

Hva som faktisk blir praktisert i dag aner jeg ikke, men her er iallefall litt mere info:

 

Kjønnslemlestelse og kuksuging av barnetisser.

https://www.diskusjon.no/index.php?showtopi...lodig+avsugning

 

 

Kallah, 1 b, (18b)

«Jesus var født utenfor ekteskapet og hans mor ble gravid under en menstruasjonsperio­de aven ond ånd.»

 

Scabbath, XIV

Jesus er i dette kapittel beskrevet som «en sønn til en romersk soldat og en jødisk hore.»

 

Hilkoth Melakhim

Kapitlet foreskriver at «kristne synder gjennom å til­be Jesus.»

 

Orach Chaim (20:2)

påstår at «kristne bevisst kler seg ut som jøder for å kunne drepe dem.»

 

Abhodah Zorah (15b)

Kapitlet påstår at «kristne har seksuell omgang med dyr.»

 

Sanhedrin, 59 a

«A drepe goyim (ikke jøde) er som å drepe et vilt dyr.»

 

Sanhedrin, 59 a

«En goy (ikke-jøde) som snuser på (får innblikk i) loven (Talmud) er skyldig til dø­den.»

 

Yebhamoth, 11 b

«Seksuelt samkvem med en liten jente er tillatt hvis hun er tre år gammel.»

 

Sanhedrin, 105 ab

«Jesus drev hor med sitt han-esel (jackass).»

 

Gittin, 57 a

«Jesus er i helvete og blir straffet ved å bli kokt i koken­de sæd. Kristne blir kokt i møkk.»

 

Zohar, 1, 160 a

«Jøder må alltid prøve å svi­ke og bedra kristne.»

 

(Kilde: Original Hebrew of the Babylonian Talmud as quoted by the 1907 Jewish Encyclopedia)

[Europa]

Lol, med den inspirasjonskilden er det ikke rart det blir bråk der nede.

[analkløe]

Lol, med den inspirasjonskilden er det ikke rart det blir bråk der nede.

hehe, nei men som sagt er dette skrevet for ca 1500år siden, så hvor mye som faktisk blir praktisert aner jeg ikke.

men som du sier: "med den inspirasjonskilden er det ikke rart det blir bråk der nede."

Trodde i utgangspunktet Torah var den mest perverse "hellige skriften", men der tok jeg skammelig feil.

 

Men som Toth etterlyser:

Er det noen jøder eller andre med kunnskap som kan forsvare/forklare disse tingene?

[Europa]

Jeg lurer litt på hvorfor de kristne støtter Israel så voldsomt når skriftene oppfordrer til hat.

[analkløe]

Jeg lurer litt på hvorfor de kristne støtter Israel så voldsomt når skriftene oppfordrer til hat.

Du tenker på israelvenner og disse gutta her?

http://www.hjhome.org/

Godt spørsmål

 

Men du har jo også kristne som reagerer på talmud

feks. disse:

KLIKK PÅ BILDE!

[toth]

Ehm.. Litt dårlig gjort mot den jevne kristne å bruke holywar.org syns jeg.. Det er åpenbart ett eller få forskrudde hoder som står bak siden, noe som kommer klart frem av plakatene.

Den jødiske nazi-sataniske mafia styrer norge? please.

Endret 6. januar 2009 av toth

[Dreid]

Sitatene du viser til er slike man finner på ekstremistiske nettsider, og etter hva jeg skjønt er de tatt helt ut av kontekst eller fabrikerte.

Viser til et innlegg på VGD, der samme tema tydeligvis nettopp har blitt diskutert:

http://vgd.no/samfunn/livssyn/tema/1439638...7/#post23152577

Se også http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/van_hyning.html

 

En stor andel av verdens jøder er sekulære. Her kan du lese litt om jødedom i de to landene med flest jøder; Israel og USA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_I...self-definition

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_in_th...States#Religion

[flammekaster]

Det er svært lett å dra sitater ut av kontekst og få dem til å høres ut som noe annet enn det de betyr, og her er det knapt nok noen faktiske sitater engang. Når man i tillegg har sett liknende sitatsamlinger fra både Bibelen og Koranen, med tilhørende forklaringer og oppklaringer, er det vanskelig å ikke være ekstremt skeptisk til disse påstandene. Men selvsagt, det står mye rart i tusen år+ gamle bøker...

[toth]

Tro meg, jeg er selv skeptisk.. Men jeg sitter å vrir hjernen, og finner ikke ut hva slags kontekst man kan sette

Sanhedrin 55b (p.376). A Jew may marry a three year old girl (specifically, three years "and a day" old).

Sanhedrin 54b (p.371). A Jew may have sex with a child as long as the child is less than nine years old.

Kethuboth 11b (p.58). "When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing."

 

i for å gjøre dem mindre groteske? Forsøk er hjertelig velkommen

Endret 7. januar 2009 av toth

[Timeo]

Det står en del om temaet i http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud#Contemporary_accusations

 

Contemporary accusations

 

Criticism of the Talmud is widespread, in great part through the Internet.[15]

 

The Anti-Defamation League's report on this topic states:

 

By selectively citing various passages from the Talmud and Midrash, polemicists have sought to demonstrate that Judaism espouses hatred for non-Jews (and specifically for Christians), and promotes obscenity, sexual perversion, and other immoral behavior. To make these passages serve their purposes, these polemicists frequently mistranslate them or cite them out of context (wholesale fabrication of passages is not unknown)...

 

In distorting the normative meanings of rabbinic texts, anti-Talmud writers frequently remove passages from their textual and historical contexts. Even when they present their citations accurately, they judge the passages based on contemporary moral standards, ignoring the fact that the majority of these passages were composed close to two thousand years ago by people living in cultures radically different from our own. They are thus able to ignore Judaism's long history of social progress and paint it instead as a primitive and parochial religion.

 

Those who attack the Talmud frequently cite ancient rabbinic sources without noting subsequent developments in Jewish thought, and without making a good-faith effort to consult with contemporary Jewish authorities who can explain the role of these sources in normative Jewish thought and practice.

—Anti-Defamation League, The Talmud in Anti-Semitic Polemics

 

Rabbi Gil Student, a prolific Internet author, writes:

 

Anti-Talmud accusations have a long history dating back to the 13th century when the associates of the Inquisition attempted to defame Jews and their religion [see Yitzchak Baer, A History of Jews in Christian Spain, vol. I pp. 150-185]. The early material compiled by hateful preachers like Raymond Martini and Nicholas Donin remain the basis of all subsequent accusations against the Talmud. Some are true, most are false and based on quotations taken out of context, and some are total fabrications [see Baer, ch. 4 f. 54, 82 that it has been proven that Raymond Martini forged quotations]. On the Internet today we can find many of these old accusations being rehashed...

—Gil Student, The Real Truth About the Talmud

 

Jeg vet ingenting om Talmud, men ser ikke bort fra at sitatene ovenfor kan være falske for å bygge opp under anti-semmetisme. Har vanskelig for å tro at judaismen har utviklet seg til å bli til den grad grotesk.

[M98kF1]

Tro meg, jeg er selv skeptisk.. Men jeg sitter å vrir hjernen, og finner ikke ut hva slags kontekst man kan sette

[...sitater...]

i for å gjøre dem mindre groteske? Forsøk er hjertelig velkommen

 

Tviler litt på det er tilfelle her, men en helt ok kontekst kunne jo være om de var klippet ut av en oppramsing av ting man IKKE skal gjøre....

[toth]

Isåfall hadde det vært formulert helt annerledes. Og om man leser hele verset, kommer det tydelig frem at det ikke er det det er snakk om, desverre.

[Angeleno]

Hvordan kan man ta disse sitatene ut av kontekst? Det er fysisk umulig når man ser på formuleringen.

[Crowly]

Beste jeg kan komme på som en mulighet er oversettelses feil.

[Dreid]

toth og Ralph Lauren:

 

Hvis dere kikket på linken jeg la ved, ville dere sett dette:

 

Kelhubath (11a-11b): "When a grown-up man has had intercourse with a little girl... It means this: When a grown up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this [see footnote] three years old it is as if one puts the finger into the eye [again see footnote] tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl three years old."

 

This is probably the most insidious quote in the whole list. The words are correctly quoted but completely out of context. All the words after [see footnote] actually appear in the footnote, and are therefore not part of the Talmud itself. This passage is a discussion of the penalties and consequences of adult-child sexual relations. The point being made is that if a man has sexual relations with a little girl, that is to be punished less harshly than if it is with an older child or an adult woman. Importantly, when she grows up, the child is to regarded as still having her virginity for legal and marriage purposes. She is not to suffer. In modern times it is quite shocking to think that the fine or reparation for raping an infant should be less than that for raping or seducing an older child, but that is the relative judgement that some of the rabbis made, and which is recorded in the Talmud. The following paragraphs continue to discuss this issue, and there does not seem to be a strong consensus on the issue. The important thing, though, is that whilst from a modern standpoint we (whether Christian, Jew or atheist) might deplore the medical and psychological ignorance which seems to inform this decision, it must be stressed that the Talmud in no sense condones such behaviour. The discussion is about how it should be punished.

 

Et annet svar:

 

The words, "When a grown man has intercourse with a girl less than three years and a day, it is nothing" really do appear in the Talmud. However, there are two very important things you have to know about those words. First, the phrase "it is nothing" is the literal translation of an idiom that means "it has no bearing on the case under discussion." It does not mean "it is morally acceptable." Second, the case under discussion is the property rights of a bride - a virgin has greater entitlement than a non-virgin. The specific question is: if a girl is raped when she is less than three years old, for the purpose of fixing her property rights at marriage, is she still considered a virgin or not? The

law is that she is entitled to the property rights of a virgin. "It is nothing" here means that it has no effect on her rights.

 

Det var altså et ganske strengt syn på jomfrudom på den tiden teksten ble skrevet.

 

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi/antisemitism...d//young-sex.01 tar opp akkurat de tre sitatene du tenkte på, toth.

 

En oppsummering: http://www.adl.org/presrele/asus_12/the_talmud.pdf

 

Det er sløsing med tid å sitte og tilbakevise disse sitatene. "Actions speak louder than words", heter det. Jeg tror ikke det finnes så mange eksempler på jøder som har fulgt disse (stort sett tullete) sitatene og begrunnet handlingene sine med at det stod i Talmud.

Endret 7. januar 2009 av Dreid

[analkløe]

Tatt helt ut av kontekst eller fabrikerte sier du dreidl?

Vell det burde være en smal sak å bekrefte/avkrefte det.

 

Mange kristne påstår at dette også er tatt ut av kontekst:

34 Tro ikke at jeg er kommet for å bringe fred på jorden. Jeg er ikke kommet for å bringe fred, men sverd. 35 Jeg er kommet for å sette skille: Sønn står mot far, datter mot mor, svigerdatter mot svigermor, 36 og en manns husfolk er hans fiender.

Det er vell slik i korte trekk europa ble "kristnet" og det er tydelig at dette sitatet har inspirert mang en korsfarer.

Så "helt ut av kontekst eller fabrikerte" begynner å bli en oppbrukt unnskyldning fra de fleste leirene.

 

Men når sant skal sies så har man i midtøsten og omeng forvrengt og manipulert hverandres skrifter og lager plagiatreligioner samt drevet heksejakt på hverandre i årtusner, så man skal ikke se bort i fra at man har lagt "godviljen til" ved oversettelse. Men en konspirasjonsteori om at uavhengige kilder av en eller annen uklar antisemetistisk grunn har fabrikert dette for å sverte jøder har jeg vanskelig for å svelge.

 

dreidl:

Kan du ikke bare scanne de aktuelle sidene fra din talmud og legge de ut slik at vi kan få se selv?

Eller er det et problem?

 

Isåfall, er det dette som er problemet?

Sanhedrin, 59 a

«En goy (ikke-jøde) som snuser på (får innblikk i) loven (Talmud) er skyldig til dø­den.»

[Dreid]

Jeg har aldri tatt i en Talmud, og har heller ikke lest en. Jeg lar linkene jeg viser til tale for seg selv.

Hvis dere fortsatt tviler på det jeg skriver, kan dere jo sende en mail til DMT og spørre dem (http://www.dmt.oslo.no/kontakt/).

[analkløe]

Jeg har aldri tatt i en Talmud, og har heller ikke lest en. Jeg lar linkene jeg viser til tale for seg selv.

Hvis dere fortsatt tviler på det jeg skriver, kan dere jo sende en mail til DMT og spørre dem (http://www.dmt.oslo.no/kontakt/).

Hvordan kan du vertifisere talmuds innhold og tredjeparts fortolkninger dersom du aldri har lest den?

Talmud kan forøvrig lastes ned her:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4608652/Co...bylonian_Talmud

[flammekaster]

Hvordan kan man ta disse sitatene ut av kontekst? Det er fysisk umulig når man ser på formuleringen.

 

For det første står det nesten ingen rene sitater i samlingen. For det andre er det aldri umulig å ta sitater ut av kontekst, og få dem til å bety noe helt annet.