afterall

Her ser vi vel igjen og igjen at Zelensky er kjapt ute for å kontre russiske talking points for at de ikke skal bli brukt mot ham og Ukraina - der han kontinuerlig viser velvilje og vilje til å forhandle så lenge det venter sikkerhetsgarantier og en slags reell fred. Burde i utgangspunktet være lurt for å fremheve at det er Russland som er på bakbeina i disse nesten-fredsforhandlingene.

Hmm, diplomatiet i krigen synes jeg har tatt en merkelig vending. Med dynamikken nå virker det som om Ukraina og Europa først og fremst forhandler med USA om fred mellom Russland og Ukraina, der USA blir pappaen på lekeplassen som skal vurdere hvem av barna som har rett. Ukraine, Europe will be ready to present 'refined' peace plan to US 'in near future,' Zelenskyy says Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskyy has said that Ukraine and Europe will soon be ready to present “the refined” peace plan to the US, taking into account recent discussions at the level of national security advisers. In a social media post, he said the work continued “very actively on all components of potential steps toward ending the war.” “The Ukrainian and European components are now more developed, and we are ready to present them to our partners in the US,” he said. “Together with the American side, we expect to swiftly make the potential steps as doable as possible,” he said. Zelenskyy stressed that Ukraine remained “committed to a real peace,” and stressed that “everything depends on whether Russia is ready to take effective steps to stop the bloodshed and prevent the war from reigniting.” “In the near future, we will be ready to send the refined documents to the United States,” he ended. https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/dec/09/ukraine-russia-lithuania-czech-republic-france-europe-latest-news-updates?CMP=share_btn_url&page=with%3Ablock-69383a848f0822e6061ebbac#block-69383a848f0822e6061ebbac

Her ber du om eksperter, og jeg gir deg eksperter. Hvorfor ignorerer du ekspertene jeg har gitt deg? Leste du kildene jeg ga deg? Leste du om religiøse argumenter for den russiske invasjonen av Ukraina? Hvorfor går du tilbake til "KI har gitt meg 5-6 nøkkelårsaker til akkurat mitt prompt, og det er fasitsvaret". Her vil jeg med rette anklage deg for å være unyansert, eller det en kan kalle en dishonest interlocutor. Jeg ba deg om kilde for tallene på fremmedkrigere, og fikk det. Jeg har ikke registrert Dagbladet-bruker, så jeg får ikke lest denne artikkelen, utenom toppteksten som informerer om at "en ikke-statlig organisasjon [melder] at hele 40 000 har vervet seg til russisk krigstjeneste". Hvilken organisasjon er dette? Reuters-artikkelen du oppgir viser til påtander fra Putin og Shoigu om at 16 000 fremmedkrigere fra "Midtøsten" har registrert seg. Sammenhengen med islam er uvisst. Betyr dette at afrikanske leiesoldater fra stort sett kristne land som kjemper for Russland sloss fordi de er kristne? 🧐 Jeg ga deg samtidig en lang liste med land Russland har hentet fremmedkrigere fra, hvor noen få av disse landene er muslimske. KI ga deg også en forklaring på at av nøkkelfaktorene som spiller inn på de fra muslimske land vil fattigdom og økonomi være de sentrale (i en lang liste, som ikke vekta religion i seg selv, forresten). Og jeg gjentar, jeg har null behov for å forsvare islam, men datagrunnlag for en redelig diskusjon må jo hvertfall prøve å stemme med virkeligheten.

Altså, det er en interessant (og egentlig morsom) sak, men hvordan vet man dette? Eller hvordan visuelt bekrefter man dette? Snakker vi en ukrainsk FPV-drone inne i shelteret, liksom?

Beklager at jeg ikke rettet oppmerksomhet mot saken du trakk frem. Jeg er glad i nyanser, og anerkjenner selvfølgelig at dette ikke er svart/hvitt. Så klart finnes det enkelte/flere prester som er imot Putin. Her sier du religion misbrukes av Putin. Kan du være med på at religion er en nøkkelfaktor i krigen? Eller ser du helt svart/hvitt på det og sier at at dette kun er politikk og ikke religion (and never the twain shall meet)? Mine historieelever vet jo også godt at hendelser svært sjelden har én eller noen få årsaker: årsaker henger sammen i ulike nettverk. Denne nyanseringen trenes de stadig i. Hva tenker du forresten om eksperten jeg fant til deg? For å belyse saken videre har jeg funnet denne, av professor i religionssosiologi Kristina Stoeckl, som også var skikkelig interessant: The Use of Religious Arguments for the Justification of the Russian Invasion of Ukraine Denne er fra 2022, men går jo enda mer spesifikt til verks, og presenterer agumenter for at krigen ble rettferdiggjort ved hjelp av religiøse argumenter.

Hvorfor stråmanner du? Jeg har selv aldri påstått at kristendom "har skyld i krigen". Jeg fant en katolsk teolog til deg, Regina Elsner, som er ekspert på den østlige kirke. Funker det? Heather Coleman: Much has been said about the instrumentalization of religion, in particular Orthodox Christianity, by both sides in the Russo-Ukrainian war. How has war affected the relationship between church and state in each country? Regina Elsner: ... However, in 2022 the situation changed in Ukraine quite seriously, due to the full-scale invasion. Russia was already using Orthodoxy as a weapon in its propaganda war and continued to do so with the onset of the full-scale war. The Russian side appropriated the Ukrainian Orthodox Church by claiming that it had to defend it and attempting to convince the world that Ukraine has certain historical and religious links with Russia, and so on. The Russian side strategically weaponized the religious factor and those few remaining tensions in Ukraine, and this is why Ukraine also had to politically react. In 2022 we saw growing public and political pressure on the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which was in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. We also saw that the Orthodox Church of Ukraine—the independent church—used its national loyalty as symbolic capital and tried to become a part of politics in Ukraine. Therefore, by the end of 2022, almost a year into full-scale war, religion had become a question of state security. On 1 December 2022, President Zelensky delivered a famous speech in which he discussed guaranteeing Ukraine’s spiritual independence and why, in order to safeguard this independence, the state must be involved with religious questions. Russia politicized religion in the context of the war, thereby provoking a response in kind from Ukraine. From my point of view, we now have a very complicated and ambivalent situation, in which Ukraine is trying to balance religious freedom on the one side and state security on the other. This is a new and also quite dangerous instrumentalization of religion for political aims, as religious freedom is a constitutive part of human security. For Russia, the situation is different. For several decades we have observed the close Russian relationship between state and church. For over twenty years now, the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) has been privileged as an instrument of the state. There are mutual benefits between state and church, which both sides extensively exploit. Since 2012, church and ruling elites have joined efforts to transform society into a repressive system—from autocratic rule to a totalitarian state, which we now have. The church and state cooperate on every level from the security sector to domestic politics, culture, education, health care, the military and so on. The war, from my point of view, has amplified this closeness, which was already quite close. For example, for a long time the state refused to follow the church’s demand for legal restrictions on abortion rights. Now, amidst open war, the issue of demographics has become crucial and the state is limiting women’s access to abortion, justifying it through “traditional values.” We now see a relationship close to a kind of a merger, where it becomes very difficult to distinguish religion from politics. We see a mutual dependence on ideology, linking cultural and religious superiority, and an apocalyptic self-confidence where religion is one of the major weapons in war, although this is not a religious war. Religious narratives fuel the propaganda. The church is partly securing international support for the state via its ecumenical global networks, and domestic mobilization is filtered through religious and Orthodox ideas. In this way, the war has strengthened this church-state relationship to a degree that they are now really one in their politics of war. Kilde: https://ukrainian-studies.ca/2024/04/30/interview-with-regina-elsner-ukraine-has-a-historical-tradition-of-religious-plurality-and-tolerance/ Veldig interessant intervju. Anbefalt lesing

Diskuterer heller fremfor å kverulere Kan jeg spørre hvor du har tallene dine på fremmedkrigere fra? Av nysgjerrighet leiter jeg selv etter gode tall på dette.

1. Du henviser til at religion ikke er en nøkkelfaktor når du spør KI. 2. Jeg viser til at KI sier at jo, kristendom og den russisk-ortodokse kirken er en nøkkelfaktor når jeg spør KI. 3. Hvorfor er ditt KI-svar mer riktig enn mitt? Dine innlegg inneholdt ingen svar, og var bare nok en gishgallop fra deg Du kunne jo prøvd å svare, fremfor å stadig gjenta at du har svart når du ikke har det?

Du sier kristendom/religion ikke er en nøkkelfaktor, så jeg spurte KI for å følge ditt eksempel om det stemmer. KI sier øyeblikkelig ja. is religion a key factor in the war in Ukraine? "Yes, religion is a significant factor, acting as both a justification for Russia's invasion and a point of deep division, with Russia's Orthodox Church backing the war and fueling narratives of a "spiritual war," while Ukraine seeks spiritual independence, creating a religious battleground alongside the military one, highlighting a conflict over identity and traditional values." Jeg spurte også hvor Putins fremmedkrigere kommer fra: The foreign soldiers fighting for Russia come from a diverse range of countries, often recruited through various means including promises of employment, legal residency, or financial rewards, though sometimes through deception or coercion. Key regions and countries identified in reports include: * Central Asia: A significant number are economic migrants already residing in Russia, primarily from countries like Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, and Kyrgyzstan. * Former Soviet Union (Non-Central Asian): Fighters have come from countries such as Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Latvia, as well as pro-Russian breakaway regions like Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and Transnistria. * The Middle East: Individuals, particularly mercenaries in groups like the Wagner Group (and its replacement, the Africa Corps), have come from countries such as Syria and possibly Afghanistan. * Asia/Southeast Asia: There have been reports and captures of soldiers from countries like Nepal, India, China, and North Korea. * Africa: Soldiers from countries like Cuba, Somalia, Serbia, Malaysia, Tanzania, Ivory Coast, and Zambia have been reported, with some conscripted from Russian prisons or by being misled. * Europe: While smaller in number, some individuals have joined from European countries, including Serbia, Germany, and Hungary. Many of the recruits from poorer countries, particularly from Central Asia and Africa, are initially economic migrants who are later pressured, deceived, or offered incentives like quick citizenship or high pay to sign military contracts. Jeg er ingen forsvarer av islam, men er islam en fellesnevner her? Jeg spurte om det også, jeg. Spesifikt om islam er en nøkkelfaktor når det gjelder Putins leiesoldater: While the foreign soldiers fighting for Russia come from many countries, Islam itself is not the primary factor motivating their recruitment or participation. The main drivers appear to be economic necessity, promises of legal status, and in some cases, coercion or deception. Many of the recruits from Central Asia are Muslim economic migrants already working in Russia, and they are frequently targeted with offers of high wages or fast-track Russian citizenship in exchange for military service.

Shit, for en dystopisk virkelighet vi plutselig lever i, der vi bruker KI til å argumentere fram og tilbake, og der KI selv virker til å være uenig. Ellers festlig at du godkjenner ukritisk ditt eget KI-svar, men ser helt bortfra mitt KI-svar. Hvor vil du gå herfra?

Siden du selv kontinuerlig trekker fram AI/Gemini som en kilde, værsågod: Yes, Christianity, particularly the Russian Orthodox Church, is a crucial factor for Russia in the Ukraine war, used by the Kremlin to provide ideological justification, foster national identity, and mobilize support through concepts like the "Russian World," linking state power with religious mission and traditional values against a perceived decadent West, despite deep divisions within Orthodoxy and condemnation from other religious leaders. How Russia uses Christianity in the conflict: Ideological justification: Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church (ROC) frame the war as a defense of Christian civilization, traditional values, and the spiritual unity of "Holy Rus'," asserting that Ukraine is part of Russia's sacred sphere. "Russian World" (Russkiy Mir): This concept promotes a shared spiritual-political space centered in Moscow, justifying Russian influence and intervention in Ukraine as a duty to protect this shared heritage from Western secularism. National Identity & Hegemony: The ROC provides theological backing for Russian regional dominance, helping consolidate power domestically and project influence abroad, with the state leveraging religion for political ends. Mobilizing Support: Religious narratives, including Putin quoting scripture (John 15:13), are used to rally believers by presenting the war as a holy struggle, a claim that resonates with some religious conservatives. Divisions & Counter-narratives: Internal Orthodox Split: The war caused a formal split between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU), with Ukrainian Orthodox leaders denouncing the invasion despite shared roots. Global Condemnation: Pope Francis and other Christian leaders have condemned the invasion, with the Vatican involved in peace efforts, contrasting with the ROC's alignment with the Kremlin. Ukrainian Perspective: Ukrainian Christians experience the war as a Gethsemane, seeking solidarity and peace, not religious justification for violence, notes Comment Magazine and CSBV.

Jeg gleder meg til dagen du skal forklare for meg hvordan vi kan skille mellom ekte kristne og folk som bare utgir seg for å være kristne

Kristendommen blir trukket fram som en viktig politisk faktor for å illustrere at, som islam, kan også kristendom brukes og misbrukes. En forherligende "oppdemming" synes jeg er vanskelig å se for seg. Da må en akseptere hele pakken, og hele denne pakken inkluderer også eksemplene jeg bidro med: støtte fra den ortodokse kirken til krigen, velsignelse av raketter som angriper Ukraina, kristennasjonalisme i USA, og som jeg også trakk fram, helt forkastelige synspunkt fra norske kristne i avisen Dagen. Derfor mener jeg utspillet ditt var unyansert

Har folk lest hele artikkelen? De tar jo også med seg et eksemplar av masken som de får analysert teknisk, der det viser seg at innholdet egentlig bare ser ut til å tilsvare et helt vanlig billig munnbind.

Igjen, jeg har ikke hevdet og hevder ikke kristendommen er en ÅRSAK til krigen, men det er du som forherliger kristendommen og roper hurra over hvor flott den er. Mener du at kristendommen slik den praktiseres i Russland stiller seg nøytral til krigen? Mener du at kristendommen slik den praktiseres i USA stiller seg nøytral til MAGA?